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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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 Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Timing help! |
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OK brand new motor, loud as hell when I first started it scared the bejeezus outta me. Talked to my mechanic who rebuilt it and got told it was fine just needed more time running. So, tonight I started it and let it run for a bit and the noise went away.  So then I'm trying to time it and for one thing I can't see any kind of mark on my pulley as to where I'm supposed to time it to.  It'll run for around five minutes with the timing out and then stall. I've tried trial and error with it and it still won't stay running for more than five minutes.  Grr. Anyways just wondering how y'all do it. I've got a nice inductive timing light I just can't see a mark no matter how hard I try. 
Cheers
Scott |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Is this a type 4 engine?
Got a timing scale on there?
Looks kind of like this....
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SlowLane
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Timing help! |
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| scottcollins72 wrote: |
So then I'm trying to time it and for one thing I can't see any kind of mark on my pulley as to where I'm supposed to time it to.
I just can't see a mark no matter how hard I try. |
The mark is a reeeeaaallly tiny notch on the edge of the pulley, and it can be hard to see with the debris guard in the way. Try removing the guard (then temporarily bolt the scale back on with the guard removed), pull the distributor cap off, and turn the engine by hand until it's close to #1 firing (ignition OFF while you're doing this of course.) Then use a bright light to inspect the rim of the pulley in the region of the timing scale. The notch may even be only in the front edge (front-is-front) of the pulley. Once you've located the notch, mark it with a white (or silver) dab of paint so that it will jump out at you when the timing strobe hits it.
_________________
Present:
'81 Westfalia: 2L, manual. Originally Canadian, now Californiated
Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
'71 Window Van - Transferred Corvair from '69
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - Internet RFC 1925
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." - Sir Terry Pratchett |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Randy: Yeah It's a type 4 and it's got the scale. Is that your engine? Cuz good lord is that sucker clean! kudos if it is! 
Slow lane: Thanks for the tip! I'm gonna get to it tomorrow hopefully I can get the darn thing running again. I notice you're in New West. Cool to see another BC resident on here. I'd love to see some pics of your van sometime!
Cheers
Scott |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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SlowLane
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| scottcollins72 wrote: |
| I notice you're in New West. Cool to see another BC resident on here. I'd love to see some pics of your van sometime. |
You wouldn't be impressed. It's not pretty.
I have noticed a few Vancouver-area folks here and in the Bay forum. I was thinking of seeing who might be interested in meeting at pub somewhere convenient...(or coffee shop if there are any minors).
_________________
Present:
'81 Westfalia: 2L, manual. Originally Canadian, now Californiated
Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
'71 Window Van - Transferred Corvair from '69
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - Internet RFC 1925
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." - Sir Terry Pratchett |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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That'd be cool. Be nice to swap some war stories with someone who actually understands the joy of owning one of these things in person. Most people I tell about my aircooled engine don't have a clue what I'm talking about. 
Scott |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Damn it. Did everything you guys told me to do. Pulled the fan shroud, even put a dob of wite-out on the pulley and the timing scale timed it to 7.5 btdc with the vacuum removed and it still stalls.  And now it's backfiring like crazy. GRRR.  So anyways I'm starting to be at a loss. Any help appreciated at this point. Can't keep wakin' the neighbours.
Thanks
Scott |
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SlowLane
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Make sure the dwell is correct before dialling in the timing. Be sure your ignition system is all up to snuff (good cap, rotor, wires, etc).
I can't recall if you said whether your van still has stock injection or if it's been converted to carbs. Either way, vacuum leaks are a bad thing and need to be eliminated. They can be hiding in any number of clever places.
Kepp plugging at it, you'll get there eventually.
_________________
Present:
'81 Westfalia: 2L, manual. Originally Canadian, now Californiated
Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
'71 Window Van - Transferred Corvair from '69
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - Internet RFC 1925
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." - Sir Terry Pratchett |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Here's my problem with it though. Everything is brand new. Motor only came out for a knock because lordco rebuilt AMC heads that they shouldn't. Put it all back in the way it came out and it should work right? Yeah, not so much. But it looks like it's going to be an ugly day out there and I'm going to play with it tomorrow. |
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SlowLane
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| scottcollins72 wrote: |
| Here's my problem with it though. Everything is brand new. Motor only came out for a knock because lordco rebuilt AMC heads that they shouldn't. Put it all back in the way it came out and it should work right? Yeah, not so much. But it looks like it's going to be an ugly day out there and I'm going to play with it tomorrow. |
Ooo, you didn't let Lordco play with your heads, did you?  They may be great for sourcing common parts and machine work on American iron, but I wouldn't trust them for machine work on an AC VW.
_________________
Present:
'81 Westfalia: 2L, manual. Originally Canadian, now Californiated
Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
'71 Window Van - Transferred Corvair from '69
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - Internet RFC 1925
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." - Sir Terry Pratchett |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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TRUST ME. Now I know. Thankfully I never sent them the block.
It was a decision made by my father in law who was paying for it all and had an account with them. #3 intake was merrily punching it's seat up through the top of the head. ugh. Never again will lordco's machine shop touch any of my parts. I had Ed at the bug shop (Awesome guy, did amazing work on my engine and he's local!, 11965 95th ave delta. myriad of parts available as well) He said in 25 years of working on aircooled engines (all he does pretty much) he's never seen the kind of wear in only 1200 K. He seems to think I've probably got:
1) A vacuum leak - Nigh impossible seeing as all vacuum hoses are new from CIP.
2) Bad or improperly connected head temp sender - Haven't tested the brand new one (since it's brand new  ) but checked connections np
3) Possibly bad points - Not possible since they were replaced 12 km before rebuild
4) Distributor trouble - Don't think so, I timed it to 7.5 btdc with vac hose on and revved advance works fine.
Groan. Trials and tribulations.
All input more than welcome at this point!
Cheers
Scott |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
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1) A vacuum leak - Nigh impossible seeing as all vacuum hoses are new from CIP.
2) Bad or improperly connected head temp sender - Haven't tested the brand new one (since it's brand new ) but checked connections np
3) Possibly bad points - Not possible since they were replaced 12 km before rebuild
4) Distributor trouble - Don't think so, I timed it to 7.5 btdc with vac hose on and revved advance works fine.
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Check all of theose vacuum hoses for leaks and where they mount. If you have recently done some head work common vacuum leaks would be where the intakes mount to the heads. I like to pout a thin coat oif hylomar or wheel bearing grease on the gasket to make sure it doesn't leak.
If you lay under the engine witht he valve covers off and somebody runs the starter, do the lifters and valves really turn?
Test the head temp sensor with your volt ohm meter to humor us. Cold you want to see something like 2000-2500 ohms.
Buy some new points and condensor, install them and then check the dwell with your meter. If you get no dwell from the meter look inside the distributor for a loose wire connection, removed ground wire or the points wire shorting out against the distributor. 47º is your number to shoot for +/- 3º.
If you can't get it to start, static time it to TDC to see if it will go then reset the timing when you are at the correct idle speed. |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Success! sort of. Turned out the cold start injector was missing it's gasket and was letting rather alot of vacuum leak.  So it's set to 7.5 degrees, changed the rotor (Had a new one on hand) Checked the cap - it's fine, all plug wires were renewed 1200 km ago with bosch silicone. Valves must be opening and closing because it idles at 700 rpm. Intake gaskets were replaced with brand new ones when the engine came back. Points and condenser were brand new literally 20 km ago. Tested the HTS with my ohm meter and it showed 5.8k but that was first thing in the morning and very cold. Don't have a dwell tach that functions so I couldn't check my dwell but it was set prior to the engine being removed.
Now the new problem It runs and drove down the road for the first time in three months today But, When you accelerate, it stumbles like flippin' crazy. Air flow meter was checked before it came off the road and my mechanic told me it had a flat spot but was functional. Are there any other causes of stumbling or should I be looking at the AFM yet again? I've checked for all other vacuum leaks possible and there just plain aren't any. All hoses renewed.
Any advice greatly appreciated, I just want to go camping one of these days and am getting tired of it just sitting in my driveway.
Cheers!
Scott |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Temp sensor II
Fuel rail pressure
AFM wiper arm |
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scottcollins72
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Checked the temp sensor II - All within specs. Checked inside my AFM while running everything seems OK. Checked it with my ohmmeter anyways according to the Bentley, Not a problem. Fuel rail pressure? I haven't got a guage to check into that one . That and I just renewed the fuel pump with a brand new stock bosch pump & new filter as well. Any suggestions?
Cheers
Scott |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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If the temp sensor really tests out at 5.8 kohms, that is out of spec. About 2300 at cold and going to about 250-450 when warm is what you are shooting for.
Buy one of these or something like it for dwell/tach/volt ohm. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Actron-CP-7676-Digi...dZViewItem
Remember you have to reset the timing after dinking with the points.
Mine is #7678 and is quite handy.
Really the pressure gauge to have is this one or something like it. 0-60 psi and designed for fuel pressure. http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=16610&cat=300&page=1
I think it is nice to have about a 3' long FI hose on it to do the volume test if you ever have to.
Do the fuel pressure test as per the Bentley to make sure the regulator is good. |
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