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Working on a disc conversion for spindle front ends. (pics)
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Working on a disc conversion for spindle front ends. (pics) Reply with quote

ok, so I get bored and think of things to do to occupy my time. This time, I decided I needed to add some front breaks to the "Doombuggy" project. It will see some street time, and with 275hp or so, I think the added binders might not be a bad idea in case of emergency.

But all the kits I saw were $500 plus, and were conversions from drum front ends. Not a whole lot out there for spindle fronts, not to mention what was out there seemed awful expensive, inefficient, and just plain ugly. And I wasn't sure what someone would do if they needed replacement parts in a hurry... not like every parts store sells pads for a buggy brake conversion kit.

So I set about on my own idea. Since I have been playing with 4th generation (93-02) camaros for a long time, I was pretty familiar with the parts. I realized the wheel bearing/hub assembly was actually fairly close in size to the flange used on the steering knuckles of my link pin/spindle front end. I did some measuring, and came up with an adapter. Of course the spindle had to be removed, but I wasn't going to be using it anyway, right?
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All it took was some thick walled steel tubing and some flat steel stock. We welded a 2" section of tubing to the old flange surface, bored a hole in the middle of the steel plates and some through holes for the mounting bolts. The hub assembly fit perfect.
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What this allowed me to do was use off the shelf (from autozone) wheel bearing assemblies, rotors, calipers and pads, as well as open up my selection of wheels (I stuck some old 4th gen wheels on there I had under the bench...yes I know those are slicks, it was just for trial fit purposes Smile ) and it allows me to run an electronic speedo/odo if I wish (that black plastic plug on the back is an abs reluctor that sends out a fixed number of pulses per revolution).
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Nothing on here is exitic or hard to find. Everything is from a 93-97 Camaro or Firebird. The only fab work was the simple adapter, and the mount for the caliper bracket (not pictured yet...that's what the cardboard is for... patterns). There is a very large clamping surface area compared to your typical conversion pieces too. The calipers came as a "loaded pair" and included both calipers, the guide pins and sleeves, as well as ceramic pads... all for $99.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sorry I don't have any pics of the calipers mounted up, but the cardboard patterns don't exactly hold the weight very well Wink For those interested, they mount at about the 3 o'clock position if you are facing the wheel from the driver's side. This clears all the steering linkage, etc.

Now all I need to do is cutout the caliper bracket mount and runs some braided stainless brake lines...

What do you think?
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USMCord1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outstanding Timberwolf, that is what this off-road stuff is about. Making it bigger,better and faster. OOORRAAHHH!!

David
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dr. awsome
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks cool! Any idea of the total cost and time involved in this conversion? I'm sure that doombugy is going to stop on a dime!
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr. awsome wrote:
looks cool! Any idea of the total cost and time involved in this conversion? I'm sure that doombugy is going to stop on a dime!


so far, the following prices are involved, but I sent out some of the welding work so it would get done faster while I was at my real job.

Morse "loaded pair" calipers: $99
Wheel bearing/hub assemblies: 2 x $110 (used, these run about $40 each, but no warranty)
Rotors: 2 x $33
Caliper mounts: ? (typically $20-$30 for the pair used)
Welding fab work: $100

I am sure the cost of having the welding done could be cut out by those of you with arc welders and the knowledge to weld steel to cast iron. Also, most all of these parts can be sourced ALOT cheaper at places like www.camaroz28.com or ebay, but there would be no warranty...

Keep in mind, while this may not seem all that much cheaper then aftermarket kits, the benefits here included everything being warranteed (calipers and pads are lifetime warranties, rotors are two year warranty, hub assemblies are also lifetime), and easy access to replacment parts. Also, I can have a couple different wheel.tires combos around so I can run on road with better handling/comfort, and then swap over for various terrains. I am going to run Weld Drag lite wheels on the front for street use. At $150 for the pair (used) with tires they are really no more than the very limited slection of spindle mount wheels out there. I will probably pick up a set for the rear too, once I have established what offset I need.
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SHMO
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you doing for the rear brakes and master cylinder, and how big is the piston on the Camaro calipers up front?

SHMO
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHMO wrote:
What are you doing for the rear brakes and master cylinder, and how big is the piston on the Camaro calipers up front?

SHMO

right now I have a CNC pedal set, but I have concerns about the reservoir being large enough so I might switch to something different. I have a few ideas...

AS far as the rear brakes, that's on the drawing board. Right now I am thinking about cutting the stock drums on a lathe, welding the stock 4 lug locations closed and redrilling them to match the lug pattern on the front (5 on 4.75). I would then use a rotor similar to the front and slide it over the newly created "flange." After that, it's just mounting calipers and such again.

I would have to run a quick measurement, but I believe the pistons are around 2.25" diameter
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing I should mention... Once the conversion is done, there are a myriad of aftermarket rotors, calipers and pads available. You want 4 piston brakes? 13" slotted and milled rotors? psycho sticky brake pads? They are all out there... Remember, these parts are from a late model camaro, and many people upgrade their cars, so there is a huge aftermarket.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this guy is one heck of a fabricator. his grammar and spelling is also top notch. Laughing
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Mr. Unpopular
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've thought of doing something similar (especially what you mentioned about the rear brakes).

Are you worried about welding to the cast spindle? I mean I have welded steel to cast, but I'm not so sure I'd take it off-road for a beating or even worse, down the highway.
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SHMO
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I modified my spindles by combining a set of link pins and ball joints, milled them and welded them together. I have used them off road without a problem (so far) for roughly 1000 miles.

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USMCord1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHMO glad to see you posting off-road again.
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takotruckin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USMCord1 wrote:
SHMO glad to see you posting off-road again.

no kidding, now he just needs to change his sig to comply with "gang up on skiddy week"

awesome job on the brakes, wanna do mine next?
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bajaherbie wrote:
this guy is one heck of a fabricator. his grammar and spelling is also top notch. Laughing


hehe, now if only my typing and proof reading were as up to par... Laughing

As far as welding steel to cast, I am not sure on the process, I had that sent out to a local welding shop. They said it would be no problem, just requires a special rod. I have seen people weld torque arm mounts to cast iron rear differentials on cars, and those take quite a bit more horsepower from quite a bit heavier vehicle, and seem to hold up well.

I will take a closer look tomorrow afternoon when I am in the garage. I was thinking about it tonight while at work and I need to do some measuring. I might just be able to build some new knuckles completely out of chromoly or something similar and thus create a bolt on solution that doesn't require the welding and fabrication...

Also, I pulled some rotors off the shelf today, rears from the same year camaro, and did some measuring. I think that flange idea just might work. The only thing tricky is redrilling for the studs accurately, but any machine shop should be able to handle that without issue. Also, I'd want to add a slice of steel tubing to the center of the drum/hub to fit through the center hole in the rotor and take some of the stress off the studs.

Nice thing is, the rear rotors from the camaro are cheap (like $22 each I think) and the calipers have mechanical e-brake levers built right in. They are 11.5" diameter, so lots of surface area. I looked at 98+ camaro rotors, and while they give a 12" diameter, they were $65 each because they have the built-in drum for the e-brake. This also meant the rear calipers wouldn't have the e-brake provision either. So I scrapped that and stuck with the 93-97 idea.
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takotruckin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep, i think i just figured out what to do with my old spindles( since i had to cut the shaft off of them) any idea on how your master cylinder will handle the big calipers?
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

takotruckin wrote:
yep, i think i just figured out what to do with my old spindles( since i had to cut the shaft off of them) any idea on how your master cylinder will handle the big calipers?

well, I think it should be ok, considering the calipers and all the brake lines will be full and bled before the master is topped off. When the pads are new, as long as the caliper guide pins are aligned and lubricated properly, the pads hover probably around .050 from the rotor surface. Assuming a 2" diamter piston, and .050 of travel requiring fluid pressure to actuate, the math wouldn't be too difficult to figure out how many CCs of brake fluid actually flow into the calipers when the pedal is pressed. Multiply that times the four calipers and then we know how much fluid leaves the reservoir. I would have to CC the reservoir to see what it holds, and compare the two numbers, then decide if it's a comfortable drop.

But I haven't bothered with that yet. There are pedal sets out there with large reservoirs or dual reservoirs for 4 wheel brakes. If it comes down to it, I'll sell my set and get something different, or fab something up out of brake and clutch masters off the shelf at the Zone Wink
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USMCord1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could set it up with seperate pedals for front and rear brakes. Looks weird but works.
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takotruckin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont think its the size of the reservoir, but its how much fluid the master actually moves. but you could probably use an off the shelf one fairly easily
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TimberwolfZ28
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

takotruckin wrote:
i dont think its the size of the reservoir, but its how much fluid the master actually moves. but you could probably use an off the shelf one fairly easily

that's true. I am not sure the bore diameter on this one. I should see if there is a part number on it and look it up.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your spindles are forged not cast. If they are you should be able to just mig weld them. Some one step in if I am wrong but I think forgings take to mig welding very well. Castiron has to be heated and welded with a nicle blend rod I think.
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takotruckin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your right, they are forged steel, just a mig will handle it. same deal as welding on gussets for the spindle.
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