Author |
Message |
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: Working on a disc conversion for spindle front ends. (pics) |
|
|
ok, so I get bored and think of things to do to occupy my time. This time, I decided I needed to add some front breaks to the "Doombuggy" project. It will see some street time, and with 275hp or so, I think the added binders might not be a bad idea in case of emergency.
But all the kits I saw were $500 plus, and were conversions from drum front ends. Not a whole lot out there for spindle fronts, not to mention what was out there seemed awful expensive, inefficient, and just plain ugly. And I wasn't sure what someone would do if they needed replacement parts in a hurry... not like every parts store sells pads for a buggy brake conversion kit.
So I set about on my own idea. Since I have been playing with 4th generation (93-02) camaros for a long time, I was pretty familiar with the parts. I realized the wheel bearing/hub assembly was actually fairly close in size to the flange used on the steering knuckles of my link pin/spindle front end. I did some measuring, and came up with an adapter. Of course the spindle had to be removed, but I wasn't going to be using it anyway, right?
All it took was some thick walled steel tubing and some flat steel stock. We welded a 2" section of tubing to the old flange surface, bored a hole in the middle of the steel plates and some through holes for the mounting bolts. The hub assembly fit perfect.
What this allowed me to do was use off the shelf (from autozone) wheel bearing assemblies, rotors, calipers and pads, as well as open up my selection of wheels (I stuck some old 4th gen wheels on there I had under the bench...yes I know those are slicks, it was just for trial fit purposes ) and it allows me to run an electronic speedo/odo if I wish (that black plastic plug on the back is an abs reluctor that sends out a fixed number of pulses per revolution).
Nothing on here is exitic or hard to find. Everything is from a 93-97 Camaro or Firebird. The only fab work was the simple adapter, and the mount for the caliper bracket (not pictured yet...that's what the cardboard is for... patterns). There is a very large clamping surface area compared to your typical conversion pieces too. The calipers came as a "loaded pair" and included both calipers, the guide pins and sleeves, as well as ceramic pads... all for $99.
Sorry I don't have any pics of the calipers mounted up, but the cardboard patterns don't exactly hold the weight very well For those interested, they mount at about the 3 o'clock position if you are facing the wheel from the driver's side. This clears all the steering linkage, etc.
Now all I need to do is cutout the caliper bracket mount and runs some braided stainless brake lines...
What do you think? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
USMCord1 Razorback
Joined: July 22, 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: Az
|
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Outstanding Timberwolf, that is what this off-road stuff is about. Making it bigger,better and faster. OOORRAAHHH!!
David _________________ For a Good time |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dr. awsome Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2005 Posts: 1298
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
looks cool! Any idea of the total cost and time involved in this conversion? I'm sure that doombugy is going to stop on a dime! _________________ is it time to get out of the dirt and switch to the street? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
dr. awsome wrote: |
looks cool! Any idea of the total cost and time involved in this conversion? I'm sure that doombugy is going to stop on a dime! |
so far, the following prices are involved, but I sent out some of the welding work so it would get done faster while I was at my real job.
Morse "loaded pair" calipers: $99
Wheel bearing/hub assemblies: 2 x $110 (used, these run about $40 each, but no warranty)
Rotors: 2 x $33
Caliper mounts: ? (typically $20-$30 for the pair used)
Welding fab work: $100
I am sure the cost of having the welding done could be cut out by those of you with arc welders and the knowledge to weld steel to cast iron. Also, most all of these parts can be sourced ALOT cheaper at places like www.camaroz28.com or ebay, but there would be no warranty...
Keep in mind, while this may not seem all that much cheaper then aftermarket kits, the benefits here included everything being warranteed (calipers and pads are lifetime warranties, rotors are two year warranty, hub assemblies are also lifetime), and easy access to replacment parts. Also, I can have a couple different wheel.tires combos around so I can run on road with better handling/comfort, and then swap over for various terrains. I am going to run Weld Drag lite wheels on the front for street use. At $150 for the pair (used) with tires they are really no more than the very limited slection of spindle mount wheels out there. I will probably pick up a set for the rear too, once I have established what offset I need. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SHMO Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2004 Posts: 1647 Location: Lynden, Washington
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
What are you doing for the rear brakes and master cylinder, and how big is the piston on the Camaro calipers up front?
SHMO _________________ SHMO's Baja |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
SHMO wrote: |
What are you doing for the rear brakes and master cylinder, and how big is the piston on the Camaro calipers up front?
SHMO |
right now I have a CNC pedal set, but I have concerns about the reservoir being large enough so I might switch to something different. I have a few ideas...
AS far as the rear brakes, that's on the drawing board. Right now I am thinking about cutting the stock drums on a lathe, welding the stock 4 lug locations closed and redrilling them to match the lug pattern on the front (5 on 4.75). I would then use a rotor similar to the front and slide it over the newly created "flange." After that, it's just mounting calipers and such again.
I would have to run a quick measurement, but I believe the pistons are around 2.25" diameter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
One other thing I should mention... Once the conversion is done, there are a myriad of aftermarket rotors, calipers and pads available. You want 4 piston brakes? 13" slotted and milled rotors? psycho sticky brake pads? They are all out there... Remember, these parts are from a late model camaro, and many people upgrade their cars, so there is a huge aftermarket. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bajaherbie Samba Sooner
Joined: November 27, 2003 Posts: 2985 Location: altus, oklahoma
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
this guy is one heck of a fabricator. his grammar and spelling is also top notch. _________________ blank |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've thought of doing something similar (especially what you mentioned about the rear brakes).
Are you worried about welding to the cast spindle? I mean I have welded steel to cast, but I'm not so sure I'd take it off-road for a beating or even worse, down the highway. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SHMO Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2004 Posts: 1647 Location: Lynden, Washington
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I modified my spindles by combining a set of link pins and ball joints, milled them and welded them together. I have used them off road without a problem (so far) for roughly 1000 miles.
SHMO _________________ SHMO's Baja |
|
Back to top |
|
|
USMCord1 Razorback
Joined: July 22, 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: Az
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SHMO glad to see you posting off-road again. _________________ For a Good time |
|
Back to top |
|
|
takotruckin SUPER Baja
Joined: August 14, 2005 Posts: 2378 Location: stuck in fresno, ca
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
USMCord1 wrote: |
SHMO glad to see you posting off-road again. |
no kidding, now he just needs to change his sig to comply with "gang up on skiddy week"
awesome job on the brakes, wanna do mine next? _________________ Member of the baja's that don't run club, for now!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bajaherbie wrote: |
this guy is one heck of a fabricator. his grammar and spelling is also top notch. |
hehe, now if only my typing and proof reading were as up to par...
As far as welding steel to cast, I am not sure on the process, I had that sent out to a local welding shop. They said it would be no problem, just requires a special rod. I have seen people weld torque arm mounts to cast iron rear differentials on cars, and those take quite a bit more horsepower from quite a bit heavier vehicle, and seem to hold up well.
I will take a closer look tomorrow afternoon when I am in the garage. I was thinking about it tonight while at work and I need to do some measuring. I might just be able to build some new knuckles completely out of chromoly or something similar and thus create a bolt on solution that doesn't require the welding and fabrication...
Also, I pulled some rotors off the shelf today, rears from the same year camaro, and did some measuring. I think that flange idea just might work. The only thing tricky is redrilling for the studs accurately, but any machine shop should be able to handle that without issue. Also, I'd want to add a slice of steel tubing to the center of the drum/hub to fit through the center hole in the rotor and take some of the stress off the studs.
Nice thing is, the rear rotors from the camaro are cheap (like $22 each I think) and the calipers have mechanical e-brake levers built right in. They are 11.5" diameter, so lots of surface area. I looked at 98+ camaro rotors, and while they give a 12" diameter, they were $65 each because they have the built-in drum for the e-brake. This also meant the rear calipers wouldn't have the e-brake provision either. So I scrapped that and stuck with the 93-97 idea. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
takotruckin SUPER Baja
Joined: August 14, 2005 Posts: 2378 Location: stuck in fresno, ca
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
yep, i think i just figured out what to do with my old spindles( since i had to cut the shaft off of them) any idea on how your master cylinder will handle the big calipers? _________________ Member of the baja's that don't run club, for now!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
takotruckin wrote: |
yep, i think i just figured out what to do with my old spindles( since i had to cut the shaft off of them) any idea on how your master cylinder will handle the big calipers? |
well, I think it should be ok, considering the calipers and all the brake lines will be full and bled before the master is topped off. When the pads are new, as long as the caliper guide pins are aligned and lubricated properly, the pads hover probably around .050 from the rotor surface. Assuming a 2" diamter piston, and .050 of travel requiring fluid pressure to actuate, the math wouldn't be too difficult to figure out how many CCs of brake fluid actually flow into the calipers when the pedal is pressed. Multiply that times the four calipers and then we know how much fluid leaves the reservoir. I would have to CC the reservoir to see what it holds, and compare the two numbers, then decide if it's a comfortable drop.
But I haven't bothered with that yet. There are pedal sets out there with large reservoirs or dual reservoirs for 4 wheel brakes. If it comes down to it, I'll sell my set and get something different, or fab something up out of brake and clutch masters off the shelf at the Zone |
|
Back to top |
|
|
USMCord1 Razorback
Joined: July 22, 2005 Posts: 1538 Location: Az
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You could set it up with seperate pedals for front and rear brakes. Looks weird but works. _________________ For a Good time |
|
Back to top |
|
|
takotruckin SUPER Baja
Joined: August 14, 2005 Posts: 2378 Location: stuck in fresno, ca
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i dont think its the size of the reservoir, but its how much fluid the master actually moves. but you could probably use an off the shelf one fairly easily _________________ Member of the baja's that don't run club, for now!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TimberwolfZ28 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Battle Creek, MI
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
takotruckin wrote: |
i dont think its the size of the reservoir, but its how much fluid the master actually moves. but you could probably use an off the shelf one fairly easily |
that's true. I am not sure the bore diameter on this one. I should see if there is a part number on it and look it up. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jaybe_2 Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2005 Posts: 169 Location: N.H.
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think your spindles are forged not cast. If they are you should be able to just mig weld them. Some one step in if I am wrong but I think forgings take to mig welding very well. Castiron has to be heated and welded with a nicle blend rod I think. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
takotruckin SUPER Baja
Joined: August 14, 2005 Posts: 2378 Location: stuck in fresno, ca
|
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
your right, they are forged steel, just a mig will handle it. same deal as welding on gussets for the spindle. _________________ Member of the baja's that don't run club, for now!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|