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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69823 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:08 am Post subject: |
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busdaddy wrote: |
I agree, but if it's bugging the crap out of you tweak the cutout tab down a hair, if the charge light stays on when you shut it off you tweaked it too much. |
Ok, I thought of this but I didn't know the light would stay on if I tweaked it too much as an indicator.
This makes sense as basically if you tweak it too much, you made the return spring action too weak so it doesn't turn "off".
I see PEPPE said that too. Great - I will try that.
It's mostly bugging me because I don't like having to set the idle higher just so it's not on all the time.
Plus the generator light red gel is totally wasted so I can see the light easier even when it's a low glow. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
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PEPPE Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2003 Posts: 1068 Location: Roma Italy
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: r |
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i agree with busdaddy, but you can check also with a tester to see if , in that moment, the voltage of the generator is higher than the battery , (significating that the generator would charge).
let us know... on 6Vs i usually tweak the lenght of the belt a little, so that the generator spins a little more fast. |
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lrestrepom Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2014 Posts: 1
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: where is the second page... |
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Someone has the second page of overhauling bosh regulator??? |
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perello Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2005 Posts: 829 Location: where social security comes for free
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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Another source of info...
_________________ Aug '58 pressed bumper SO23
1974 German Thing
1978 Bug 1200 |
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RichOakley Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004 Posts: 1108 Location: Midlands, UK
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Reviving this thread again.
The electrical/charging system is working fine on my car when revving, but at idle, the voltage output from the regulator is 5.90-6.00v. At the fusebox, I'm getting 5.80-5.90v at idle, not quite enough to power everything happily.
Can I adjust something in the regulator to increase the voltage just at idle?
Thanks,
Rich. _________________ 1947 Beetle
1956 RHD Karmann Cabrio
1956 RHD Beetle
1957 RHD Pitt-Moto Type 2 Camper
1959 RHD Beetle
1966 RHD Type 3 Fastback
1976 RHD Sun Beetle |
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sgellis Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2016 Posts: 2014 Location: SW Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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RichOakley wrote: |
Reviving this thread again.
The electrical/charging system is working fine on my car when revving, but at idle, the voltage output from the regulator is 5.90-6.00v. At the fusebox, I'm getting 5.80-5.90v at idle, not quite enough to power everything happily.
Can I adjust something in the regulator to increase the voltage just at idle?
Thanks,
Rich. |
You will need to spin the generator faster to increase its output. Maybe adjust the idle RPM up a little. Also there may be different pullies available. Larger crank or small generator pully will help. _________________ My 64 Kombi restoration
My camper interior build
My 54 standard restoration
The Nova Scotian Barndoor (YouTube)
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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One thing I have found messing with regulators is to make sure all of the mechanical clearances are per book spec (see post above). If they're off, the unit will not operate correctly. So check them after any filing or sanding of the contact points. All other operational adjustments are made by adjusting the spring tension as shown above.
The ideal high speed charge voltage is around 7.2 volts for 6 volt systems and 14.4 for 12 volt systems. This voltage varies a little with temperature. You can find charts online which show the exact values.
If the voltage at the "Df" terminal on the regulator is at 0 at idle, then the regulator is commanding the generator to produce maximum output. If it isn't enough, then the only solution is to either spin it faster, or change out the generator for one which produces a higher output. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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52brezelfenster Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2005 Posts: 761 Location: OR
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Everett, I'm trying to bring my idle output voltage up a tad.
The picture you posted below where you tweaked post (D) up... did that seem to work well on your car to accomplish this?
Thank you,
Dustin
EverettB wrote: |
Old thread but it seemed to be the closest match to something I was researching.
I just tweaked the regulator in my '61 to increase the output voltage from 6v to 7v. Per the page above, I tweaked the post (D) UP to increase output voltage
One issue I am having though is sometimes the light is on at idle.
When it is on, I checked the voltage at connection 61 on the regulator, the place where the wire for the warning light connects, and it is only 4-5v. It increases to 6-7v right above idle, when the regulator starts to kick in and produce more than 6v at the main B+ generator post.
I:
Cleaned the internals of the regulator - sprayed the 2 sets of points with electrical cleaner. I did not file them at all.
Cleaned the generator commutator - it looked shiny already
Made sure the brushes were contacting - they are also fairly new and slide freely in their holders
Tried another used regulator, with the same result.
I'm not sure if this means there is an issue with my regulator? Or generator? There is no charging issue, it's just the light is on at idle sometimes.
I don't want to buy a new regulator for no reason.
My idle is not low either, it's set to about 1000 rpms.
I would like to turn it down lower but then the light is always on at idle as the reading at the 61 connection drops to between 3-4v.
On my other 6v Bus, the reading at post 61 is 6v almost instantly after start-up. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Bending that regulator adjustment adjusts high speed output voltage. Idle output is controlled by generator speed and generator design. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69823 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Yes, it did raise the voltage and the light is off most of the time but not completely - Sometimes the light still blinks on if the idle randomly drops a little.
So I guess it didn't totally work for me.
It's possible based on what Telford said that I have the idle high enough so that it's in non-idle mode?
This is on my Double Cab and I think it has dirty connections elsewhere that could be cleaned up - that might help too. I have never cleaned up the speedometer posts or connections but I have cleaned the fuse box. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
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52brezelfenster Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2005 Posts: 761 Location: OR
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Thanks fellas for the info. Time to get my voltage meter out for a little tweaking.
Dustin |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Bending that regulator adjustment adjusts high speed output voltage. Idle output is controlled by generator speed and generator design. |
What I find confusing is that in the Mitchell Repair Information pages pictured a few posts up, in Generator Regulators/BOSCH/ADJUSTMENTS ON TWO-UNIT REGULATORS/VOLTAGE REGULATOR/Regulator With Flexible Contacts & 1973 Regulators, it says "3) Adjust the regulating voltage at idle by bending up stop "D" to achieve a higher reading and down to achieve a lower reading." (emphasis mine).
An in the page from Glenn's pictured a several posts ago, in OVERHAULING A BOSCH TWO-UNIT REGULATOR/MECHANICAL AND ELECTRICAL ADJUSTMENTS/VOLTAGE REGULATOR ADJUSTMENTS (UNITS WITH FLEXIBLE CONTACTS), it says "Adjust the regulating voltage at idle by bending stop (D) up to achieve a higher voltage."
My generator produces such a low voltage at idle that the CUT-OUT RELAY isn't even cut-in. It doesn't seem like the voltage regulator has anything to do at idle.
It seems to me that stop (D) is actually used to adjust the "beginning of regulation" like in Glenn's TESTING THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR AT LOW SPEED: "... open circuit (without a battery) ... voltmeter between terminal 51 ... and ground ... Increase the generator speed and read the meter after it stops rising..." It just makes me more confused that they call this "AT LOW SPEED".
Or perhaps stop (D) is supposed to set the "Voltage Regulator (Volt. @ open circuit @ 1750 rpm)" seen in the specifications. Is 1750 rpm LOW SPEED? It would be a pretty high idle. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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The generator must be able to produce excess voltage before the regulator has any control. To find out, measure the voltage at Df. If it's zero, then the regulator is already commanding the generator to produce maximum output, and it's up to the generator to get that done (by spinning faster). _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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carlk3 wrote: |
... in the Mitchell Repair Information pages pictured a few posts up, in Generator Regulators/BOSCH/ADJUSTMENTS ON TWO-UNIT REGULATORS/VOLTAGE REGULATOR/Regulator With Flexible Contacts & 1973 Regulators, it says "3) Adjust the regulating voltage at idle by bending up stop "D" to achieve a higher reading and down to achieve a lower reading." |
After doing some more web surfing, I found out that similar BOSCH regulators were used in Ford cars and tractors, airplanes, and other applications. I found some pretty clear instructions for the old Fords, and it looks like those generators (or starter/generators) would produce >6v at idle. I think that might be where this wording came from. I think that for the VW what they are implying is a fast idle of 1750 RPM.
Which reminds me, where can I find a handheld tachometer that will work with this electrical system? I have one of these: Actron CP7677 AutoTroubleShooter - Digital Multimeter and Engine Analyzer for Automotive Professionals, but I can't make heads nor tails from the readings. I tried using Spectroid on my phone, and couldn't make sense of that, either, although I might have screwed up converting RPM to Hz. Let's see,
1750 revs/min * 1 min/60 sec = 29.16 revs/sec. * 2 firings/rev = 58.3 Hz? |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Looks right.
Code: |
1750 revs min 2 firings 3500 firings
--------- x ------ x --------- = ------------ = 58.33 firings / sec = 58.33 hz
min 60 sec rev 60 sec
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Looks like that meter should read out directly in RPM... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14266 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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carlk3 wrote: |
...where can I find a handheld tachometer that will work with this electrical system?... |
Harbor Freight sells one that reads off a piece of reflective tape if that would work for you. |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Looks right.
Code: |
1750 revs min 2 firings 3500 firings
--------- x ------ x --------- = ------------ = 58.33 firings / sec = 58.33 hz
min 60 sec rev 60 sec
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Looks like that meter should read out directly in RPM... |
Thanks. Yeah, I was shopping specifically for a meter with a tach that would work on 6v, but I get confusing results. I'll have to try it again and post a photo. Maybe it's just operator error.
EDIT: OK, I took photos and a video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/iXQbXBX2MWVob1Md6
I read this as saying my idle is, say, 148 x 10, but it doesn't sound like 1500 RPM to me. (Hopefully you can hear it in the video.)
On the other hand, Spectroid shows a peak at 59 Hz, which would tend to support a high idle close to the 1750 figured above.
EDIT 2: I played around some more with Spectroid, and there is a lower frequency peak that comes into prominence when I rev the engine. When it drops back the idle, that peak moves down to 30 Hz, which would correspond to about 900 RPM, which is more believable to me.
Last edited by carlk3 on Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:53 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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BarryL wrote: |
Harbor Freight sells one that reads off a piece of reflective tape if that would work for you. |
Oh, that's a clever idea! I'll have to look into that. It would be nice to have dwell, too, though. (I'm still running points.)
In the meantime, I found another app. called Sound Spectrum Analyzer that I want to try. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51145 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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carlk3 wrote: |
Is 1750 rpm LOW SPEED? It would be a pretty high idle. |
You are aware that's generator speed and not engine speed, right?, the pulley is smaller so it turns faster than the engine RPM.
A contact tach or the one that uses a bit of reflective tape is what you need to gauge that. Or do the math and determine the pulley ratio so you can use engine RPM as the gauge. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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busdaddy wrote: |
You are aware that's generator speed and not engine speed, right?, the pulley is smaller so it turns faster than the engine RPM. |
Ah, good point. So, if then gen. pulley is about 4 1/4", and the crank pulley is about 7", the gen. is being overdriven by a factor of about 1.6? So 1750 RPM at the gen. is an engine RPM of around 1060? Slightly high idle. Probably enough to get mine actually producing something over 6v (open circuit). |
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