Coupe to Convertible conversion

[St_Rand]

Can someone provide the measurement in the image below for a 1964 convertible? I am finding out my 1961 vert is anything but. As near as I can tell I have at least 4 different cars tacked together. The pan is definitely '61. Someone riveted the VIN tag in the luggage area from this pan. So when I checked it out, it seemed to match. It's only as I've been restoring the car that I see it is a Franken-ghia. Now, I'm suspecting that the body is actually a coupe that someone converted into a cab. I've just finished my rear seat back and there is now way this can be right. It's hard to find the dims for the rear seat area of a '64.

Now you may be asking, why a '64 if the pan is '61 (or not), it was the doors catches/latches and the fact the rear view mirror has a dome light. I can tell though, the windshield frame was welded on after-the-fact. From the rear rocker seam forward is one body, aft of that is another. Given what's going on with the rear seat, I don't think I have a rear seat area.

You can see from the shockingly bad weld where the vertical top support is welded to the seat side that this was added.

FWIW, yes, I kick myself for being "taken" by the seller who didn't disclose a thing about this car. I did notice the bad welds, but was so excited about the car that I didn't 2nd guess - live and learn. I'm too far along to give up on my little Frankenghia. To add insult to injury, if it's a coupe body, then there will almost certainly NOT have the extra supports in the rockers and I'll have to fix that too.

[Era Vulgaris]

I can't tell you that measurement on a vert, but on my 66 coupe it's approx 43" from shelf to shelf across the rear seat (ie, width of rear seat backrest).

I can say that the coupes don't have that surrounding piece with the large circular holes in it, nor do they have the vertical piece that the soft top mounts to. That whole area is one that can get heavily rusted out on a vert with a bad top, so it's possible that someone grafted in the rear seat shelf and crossmember from a coupe because it's all they could find.

But I've never owned a vert, so I can't say for certain what that area behind the door is supposed to look like on a vert, so it could be as you suspect. I do see a few of the holes that a coupe's rear door panel would mount to on the back of the b-pillar, and the top of the b-pillar looks quite odd. Someone who knows verts better than I do will have to chime in.
_________________
Currently own:
66 Karmann Ghia, L390 Gulf Blue, under construction, here: www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760505&highlight=
99 Mazda MX-5 10AE, Sapphire Blue Mica, 6 speed, LSD

Previously owned:
98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue

[Rome]

Please describe better what measurement you need.

Here's a shot from moogie32's '63 Ghia Cabrio which happens to show a similar area to yours. Your rear side panel is at least from a '62 due to the angled plate where the shoulder belt mounting bolt is fastened. A '61 would not yet have that plate.

Rear of rear seat base shelf showing the 3 small mounting holes for the rear seatback base hinge. The hinge and the 3 holes use sheetmetal-type screws.

[Era Vulgaris]

Seeing Moogie32's vert in Rome's post above, the B-pillar/door jamb is quite different. In the area I've circled below, you can see holes where a coupe's rear door panel would mount, as well as the zig-zag overhang that makes the rear door panel flush in the area that would be beneath the quarter window and above the rear door panel.

You can see that area I'm talking about on the B-pillar/door jamb here on my coupe

_________________
Currently own:
66 Karmann Ghia, L390 Gulf Blue, under construction, here: www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760505&highlight=
99 Mazda MX-5 10AE, Sapphire Blue Mica, 6 speed, LSD

Previously owned:
98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue

[St_Rand]

I fear you're right about that door pillar zigzag. I didn't catch that.

[sputnick60]

Dunno if these photos help you much. it's a '66 so this area should the same as anything up to the middle of the '67 model year.

Nicholas
_________________
'66 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet...
'65 Porsche 356C Coupe...
2005 Mecedes Benz C180 Kompressor Estate
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Rome]

sputnick, your photos should help a lot for the OP to examine his Ghia. On Ghia Cabrios, their rear seat base side panels are much wider than on Coupes. The wider design made for a larger "box" section for stability against lateral body flex. Coupes did not need such wide shelves because the roof provided the structure for resisting body flexing. Thus the narrower rear seats themselves on Cabrios.

Coupes' rear "package shelf" is also right up below the rear window edge, because on the Cabrio the shelf had to be moved down several inches to make room for the top mechanism and the top padding to fit when its down.

Noted by its absence in the Cabrio is the Coupe's passenger side rear heater "Y-pipe" under the seat base, that has no hose going to the underside of the rear package shelf for the Coupe's rear seat defogger. If the OP's Ghia has that Y-pipe with a hose connection flange along its top (might be plated over), then the car likely did start as a Coupe.

[St_Rand]

Thanks everyone for the input. It's pretty clear this section (in my car) is from a coupe. Thank you for the pictures they are very helpful I'd love to know what the section where the cut-out is for the vertical top brace bolts to looks like where it goes through the shelf. (A in the image)

Specifically, would anyone know where there would be drawings or original docs that details this structure. I'm thinking of fabricating this myself. Otherwise, I can try to hunt down a wrecked parted out vert and get them cut out for me.

Regarding "B" in the image, it looks like there is a piece of interior trim that goes here, or has this been custom made?

I'm quite sure I will have to cut my rockers out and add the convertible supports. I had sent an endoscope through the inspection hole and I could NOT see the rail.

[Loren]

My convertible post has lots of images of the rear area that might be useful for you. I think the images you would find most helpful start around page 16 or 17.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=340

[St_Rand]

Thank you Loren - I'll take a look.

[St_Rand]

Thanks again Loren. I went through your pictures. Wow! What a project. Where is this shop?

Anyway, those pictures are FANTASTICALLY helpful.

[Loren]

Wrenn Metall Werks is doing the metal work on my Ghia. His shop is near Sacramento.

[St_Rand]

Hi Loren,

Looking at some other vert images of this area, it looks like you've added a support. Here are two images looking at the same area. In your picture you have the part circled, but in this salvage picture it's not there.

Do you know if you've added this or was it part of a '58 and not later?

I'm just curious. If you did add it, it seems like a very good idea.

[sputnick60]

[Loren]

[St_Rand]

First and foremost - THANK YOU LOREN! Your pictures were invaluable to me in trying to make this back seat structure "more" true to a convertible. So I finally got the parts. I've practiced welding on scrap. I've never welded before. Today I began constructing a convertible's rear seat structure into the Franken-Ghia.

I was able to obtain the top frame structural supports from Gary LaVere in Concord, CA. He did not have the boxes that are on either side of the seat and are wider than the coupe. I watch a YouTube channel "Make It Kustom" and "Japhands." He demonstrated how you can make panels with nothing more than hammers and some 3/4" melamine. He also demonstrated how to make templates from masking tape. So, masking tape in hand, Gary LaVere let me have access to a vert and I made the templates then used Make It Kustom's method.

Here's the coupe structure that was butchered to receive the top frame. What you can see is they just cut off the lower half welded it to the top of the box.

Here is a picture of the frame part cut out. You can see they cut the bottom half clean off!

This is looking down on the trailing arm of the forward top frame support. It's hard to see, but the sheet metal to the right of this arm should be welded to the wheel arch. On this car it's 1/2" away!

Here's my "Make It Kustom" handmade panel next to the original box top

This is the same panel fitted into place

Here's the donor top frame being fitted

From the donor section I have the top of the door pillar. If I'm brave enough I'll replace this too for correctness.

[St_Rand]

Oops! I selected the wrong picture to show the fitted panel. This is it:

[St_Rand]

Here's the result of making the panels with hammer forms and installing the new top frame structure. I'll fix the rust holes for the header bows as well. Not the prettiest welding ever, but I've never welded before.