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MConstable
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Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
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 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: SLR (Steve Long Racing) |
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Hey guys...I called Steve Long today to get info on lifters, lifter/cam compatibility etc.
He said he didn't like the lobe radius on Web cam's...said they were very flat, and didn't spin the lifter very well.
Just thought I'd pass that along and see what the good folks here thought?
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1974 Thing |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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The cam lobe taper is dictated by the lifter radius..
What this boils down to is more than likely that Web Cams are not as compatible as others with HIS lifter service, because he regrinds and alters the lifter radius...
I worked through this for 18 months before finding the "Sweet spot" for the cams and lifters.. Too much spin creates point loading, something that starts much of the lifter/cam failures but is often overlooked or deemed "Hardness related" when its really not...
Buying cams and lifters from the same source is a must, mixing and matching is a death sentence.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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timmy74006
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Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
Buying cams and lifters from the same source is a must, mixing and matching is a death sentence. |
Not wanting to piss anyone off, especially Jake, but I have to ask the question:
Does this mean if you buy a WebCam, you have to use their lifters, which, other than the ceramics they sell, have been known to be Scat lightweight racing lifters? I thought the Scats were tabboo for use in anything that you wanted more than a few thousand mile of life out of. Like I said, the question had to be asked. When I finally get off of my ass and assemble my engine, I want to know it's done right the first time, including the parts that go in it. This was an intersting find about SLR lifter and WebCam compatability.
Tim |
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MConstable
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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From my research (not what I know...but what I've been told by higher-ups in the industry) Web's lifters are NOT Scat's anymore, and haven't been for a while.
Like I said...I don't know this first hand...just what I've been told.
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timmy74006
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Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| MConstable wrote: |
From my research (not what I know...but what I've been told by higher-ups in the industry) Web's lifters are NOT Scat's anymore, and haven't been for a while.
Like I said...I don't know this first hand...just what I've been told. |
Well that's a drag. When I bought my Web 218, I was wondering whether I needed to buy their lifters. I called them up and told them what I had and they said the Scats would work fine. Then I started hearing things about the Scats that I had being junk, so stupid me, I got some Scat Lube a Lobes thinking that the extra lubrication would prevent the pitting problem. Then I saw pictures of pitted Lube a Lobes and got some Weissman Brazillian lifters, new, that had been reground and SLR treated. Now I find that they don't work well with Web Cams. Now I have three sets of lifters and a brand new cam and don't know what to do. Any suggestions? By the way, ceramics are out of my budget, so that's not even an option.
Tim |
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RIS
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2003
Posts: 3043
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| timmy74006 wrote: |
| Weissman Brazillian lifters, new, that had been reground and SLR treated. |
You mean Mahle Brazilian? All the Weissman's I've seen are German. You've got one of the other.
| timmy74006 wrote: |
| Now I have three sets of lifters and a brand new cam and don't know what to do |
So you've got the Scat's, SLR treated lifters, and what's the third option?
I'd call Webcam and buy what they recommend. That way if there is a failure they can't fault you for using the wrong lifters.
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Richard Sedoris - VW Performance & Machine - Youngstown, OH
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MConstable
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Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Back when I first started hearing about the Scat failures, I called Web about it, they said the Scats were fine with their cams...Darren (DRD) says the same...He's a Web dealer now, and recommends the Scats as well (With the SC-1 blank).
Steve Long also spoke well of the new CB lifters.
....Man...what's a guy to do???? (and don't say the Udo word  )
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vwdragracer
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Joined: December 02, 2001
Posts: 398
Location: Misbehavin Motorsports HQ.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not very inpressed with steve longs advice. He recommended a specific valve spring to be used with my web cam and lifter combination in my 2332 turbo motor, the result is 1 broken cam (hard weld) and 1 cam (steel billet) with a fobar lobe as a result of 2 lifters bouncing off the cam. when I removed the valve springs (installed by Heads up Performance so I have no doubt they were installed correctly) I found 6 differant seat pressures and 5 differant "over the nose" pressures. All of this on a cam that had its break in (done by Kurt Mezger of Vintage Performance) and a few street miles before it made 2 passes down the 1/4 mile. cam 1 broke on the second pass. After sending everything out to the propper people to get inspected checked Kurt reassembled themotor and shipped it to me. I put about 40 street miles on it and 1 pass down the 1/4 mile (12.27 at 138.5 mph) on the return road the motor sounded like it lost a rod bearing. I towed it back to the trailer and did a leak down. results motivated me to pull the engine and remove the heads. I found 2 bent valvs and a shit load of lifter material in my system 1 filter. I am currently waiting for all my parts to arrive in Az so I can put it all back together. Valve springs of choice now are K-800's
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Going fast in a VW because to do so in anyything else is boring |
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Eaallred
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Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| vwdragracer wrote: |
| the result is 1 broken cam (hard weld) |
Interesting. I've broken two hardwelded cams in my engine. I went back to a non-hardwelded cam this time around and so far so good. The hardwelded cam lobes look incredible even after running a full season with K800 springs, and my current cam lobes don't look as 'nice'. No loss of lift, but you can definitly tell it's a used cam. If it weren't for the hardwelded cams being in two pieces, they would look unused. It definitly makes an incredible wear surface. I just wonder if it makes the cams brittle from the welding. I have no idea, but the theory i'm tossing around in the back of my head. The break isn't a 'shear' like you see with a broken axle or something similar.
As I side note, my SLR reground SCAT lifters look great even with a few hundred 9000rpm passes on them so far. Just my results. I do run full synthetic oil and a bottle of STP per gallon of oil. Don't know if that's the secret formula or not, but whatever i'm doing, it's working for me so i'll continue to do it. These lifters have been with four cams so far. (two broken hardwelded cams, one Engle cam that went flat after a very short period, and now my current cam) That ought to get some of you rolling! LOL.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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RIS
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2003
Posts: 3043
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
| I just wonder if it makes the cams brittle from the welding. I have no idea, but the theory i'm tossing around in the back of my head. The break isn't a 'shear' like you see with a broken axle or something similar. |
I think you're onto something there, last I talked to Steve he doesn't do hardweld cams anymore...
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with a hard weld cast cam is the fact that the shank of the cam sees temperatures that make it prone to becoming brittle...
This is why roller cams are copper plated, to keep the extreme heat treat from penetrating their surface between the lobes..
The only cast cams I have ever broken had been hardwelded, thats why I don't use them any longer...
Compatibility is the key, all too often hardness is blamed for issues that are purely created from physical incompatibility of components. microwelding created from incorrect surface finishes also created wear issues that are also often overlooked..
Looking at the surfaces of cast cams and todays lifters under a microscope is very alarming, they look like a miniature Grand Canyon, its a wonder that issues are not more abundant than they are and I believe that IF these cars were being driven as much as they should the issues would be alarming.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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wheel607
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Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Jake Raby"]
Buying cams and lifters from the same source is a must, mixing and matching is a death sentence.[/quote
Boy, What an easy thing to say!!! How many Engle cams are out there? Probably the number 1 aftermarket performance cam grinder at work today.....BUT, Engle does not make a lifter. So Jake, do you not use Engle cams because you cannot get lifters from Engle? If you use Engle cams, what lifter do you use? Example: lets say you are using an FK8 with 1.4 rockers |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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The last Engle cam I used was in 1990.
If a cam grinder does not make/ offer a lifter they should atleast offer a recommended lifter that is compatible with the physical characteristics of their lobe. The main reason VW and other flat tappet engines are seeing failures is due in part to the total lack of care from the manufacturers of cams and their unwillingness to develop their grinds to be proven with certain lifters, this is further impacted by the lifter quality and of course the changes in automotive engine oils in the past few years.
To more directly answer your question:
I buy Web cams only for my engines. This is because the crew at Web cam has been willing to work with me to develop my custom grinds to perfection and will do anything I ask without question, no matter how stupid it may sound.
In 2003 we could not builod an engine without worry that the cam would fail, so I swapped to composite lifters across the board while we worked to remedy the issues in house. The result was cams and lifters from every manufacturer being tested together and then having each of them modified in a series of ways and retesting.
What we ended up with was basically our own lifter profile that is reground, cryogenically enhanced, Ion Nitrided and then parkerized. I had to work through this problem myself without ANY support from ANY of the cam manufacturers that I tested goods for. 18 months and 20K later it was finally figured out..
So I only use Web cams and couple them with the lifters that I have developed to work best with them....
***remember this is Type 4 information, and should only be generally applied to the TI engine***
I have never been fond of engle cams, every one I profiled was unsatisfactory and their quality control was clearly impacted by their huge volumes. Many, Many people have had excellent luck with Engle, but I'm not one of them.
I'm done with flat tappets totally, by the end of this year roller cams and lifters will be standard on all of my builds. the quality of the cam blanks is getting worse and if I can't build an engine that has a cam and lifters that will exceed the life of the rest of the engine my labor, parts and development are a total waste.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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wheel607
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Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| I now totally understand your position. And, you are right about Engle, as I have called several times in the past two years only to get a really old guy on the phone who at one time , maybe 1950 had it together, tell me Scat lifters were the best, and Engle didnt make lifters anymore because, "why bother" So your point is well taken......Thanks |
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timmy74006
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Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I noticed on WebCam's website that they now offer billet lifters instead of the lightweight racing lifters that I presume used to be Scat. Quote from their website: "Made from a specially hardened iron alloy, then precision ground to exacting radius and finished to insure long life. Use with all new cams. Price per set. $70.00" Anyone know if these are anygood? Goes with Jake' comment of buying the lifters where you buy the cam. They also have composite lifters that require no break in for $560 (too rich for my blood), and reground lifters for use with stock cams.
Tim |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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The composite lifters are NLA as we source them from the same MFR as web. The war used all the materials - I haven't received a set of them in over a year...
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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timmy74006
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Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| The composite lifters are NLA as we source them from the same MFR as web. The war used all the materials - I haven't received a set of them in over a year... |
Any info on their billet lifters? It's that or buy a similar cam grind from SLR since those are the only good lifters it seems that I have in hand. I'd like to stick with Web as you seem to think pretty highly of them (you recommended the cam I have to me.) Just want to be sure I measure three time and cut only once. Or to put it another way...I want to get it right the first time. Thanks for all of your insight along with the other members of the list.
Tim
71 Bus (and it's a real looker!!!) |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I have no experience with the Billet lifters you have mentioned... They were not available when I was still working with TI engines..
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Ohio Tom
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Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: Marshallville Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I built a 2110 last year for my buddy Jacob. I used those new CB 2pc lifters. They are halfway to the weight of a Composit Ceramic lifter.
So far they seem to be working well with his rampy ass FK-45 cam. The car is driven many street miles during the summer, plus he drag races it and competes in Burnout contests. You could say he gives it hell... The car runs 12.90's all summer. The motor hasn't lost any power so far. No funny stuff in the oil. I haven't gotten a chance to measure the lift, but I'm sure if it were going to go, it would have already... |
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nsracing
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Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9467
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
The cam lobe taper is dictated by the lifter radius..
What this boils down to is more than likely that Web Cams are not as compatible as others with HIS lifter service, because he regrinds and alters the lifter radius...
I worked through this for 18 months before finding the "Sweet spot" for the cams and lifters.. Too much spin creates point loading, something that starts much of the lifter/cam failures but is often overlooked or deemed "Hardness related" when its really not...
Buying cams and lifters from the same source is a must, mixing and matching is a death sentence. |
I am just wondering how much "crown" do you have on the lifters that you end up w/ point loading? |
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