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53 0val Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003 Posts: 11396 Location: Irvine, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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jays58s wrote: |
53 0val wrote: |
janerick3 wrote: |
Four-brick crests were replaced by three-brick crests sometime in 1955, so it isn't original to your '60. |
You need to re-think what you said.........three bricks WERE REPLACED by 4 bricks.........not the other way around. |
That's what I thought, don't you have a 53 or 55 that's pretty original? I'm curious what month they changed from the blue/green crest to the black/red green me? |
Don't know, but most changes occurred in March. If I were guessing, I'd say April..........but that's just a guess. Someone with a copy of Progressive Refinements should be able to find out. _________________ "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." Dobee, Dobee, Do |
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jays58s Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004 Posts: 2133 Location: Nor-Cal
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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53 0val wrote: |
jays58s wrote: |
53 0val wrote: |
janerick3 wrote: |
Four-brick crests were replaced by three-brick crests sometime in 1955, so it isn't original to your '60. |
You need to re-think what you said.........three bricks WERE REPLACED by 4 bricks.........not the other way around. |
That's what I thought, don't you have a 53 or 55 that's pretty original? I'm curious what month they changed from the blue/green crest to the black/red green me? |
Don't know, but most changes occurred in March. If I were guessing, I'd say April..........but that's just a guess. Someone with a copy of Progressive Refinements should be able to find out. |
I tried to look through the progressive refinements on the site here and couldn't find anything. |
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ZENVWDRIVER Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 3340 Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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... all type one deluxe bugs back to 1951 had a front mounted crest... 1950 as well as 1963 did not have one.
According to Car Of the Century, ch. 5010447 was the last car to wear the Wolfsburg city arms badge... crest. _________________ 5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK
Last edited by ZENVWDRIVER on Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jays58s Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004 Posts: 2133 Location: Nor-Cal
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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ZENVWDRIVER wrote: |
... all type one deluxe bugs back to 1951 had a front mounted crest... 1950 as well as 1963 did not have one. |
I knew all that, but I'm wanting to know what month they made the switch from the early crest, to the late crest. |
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janerick3 Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2006 Posts: 1879 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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"That's what I thought, don't you have a 53 or 55 that's pretty original? I'm curious what month they changed from the blue/green crest to the black/red green me?"
My original crest form my '54 was stolen off the car in 1994 and I don't have any photos of it. There was a photo once on this thread of an identical crest, but likely was on Photobucket, so it's long gone. The kid who was the prime suspect in the theft ended up marrying a MUCH larger woman, so revenge is sweet.
Progressive Refinements does not identify the changeover date from blue to black crests, so I believe 6 August 1959 (start of 1960 model year) is a safe bet. The one on your '60 was likely installed by the original owner or swapped at the dealership.
As for four versus three brick crests, I went through the entire thread and, with one exception (bottom of p. 13), supports my position that four-brick crests were more common earlier. There were several different molds made by both primary suppliers over the years and by the end of the 1959 model year, only the 3-brick molds were still in use (not that it really matters 58 years after production of blue crests ended at the OEMs). _________________ Thanks,
Jan K. |
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53 0val Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003 Posts: 11396 Location: Irvine, CA
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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The four bricks WERE more common because of the number of cars that required them, but the three bricks are what are correct for the early cars. When the change went to 4 bricks is your first concern. Your '54 should have a three brick....in my experience.
The VW TREFFEN is next week in Anaheim. I will be there with the '53 along side some very original pre-'58 cars. I'll check with the pre-55 owners as to the originality of their badges. I know mine came with 3 bricks, but mine was a North American delivery car........so there might be some issue there. Interesting to see this thread again.... _________________ "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." Dobee, Dobee, Do |
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IN2VWS Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2006 Posts: 2521 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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53 0val wrote: |
The four bricks WERE more common because of the number of cars that required them, but the three bricks are what are correct for the early cars. When the change went to 4 bricks is your first concern. Your '54 should have a three brick....in my experience.
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Not sure if your 3 and 4 brick comments are accidentally transposed, but if not.....Sorry, but I disagree with your comment completely. The 4 brick is the early version. _________________ ( ⫏ ⫐ )
(ọ\ ¡ /ọ)¹⁹⁵⁴ ¹⁹⁵¹
(⦷ ⥢ Ĭ ⥤ ⦷) 𝗞_𝗔_𝗥_𝗠_𝗔_𝗡_𝗡 𝓖𝓱𝓲𝓪¹⁹⁵⁶
⨴⨵--⊗--⨴⨵ 𝕊ℙ𝟚¹⁹⁷³
𝟵_𝟭_𝟰¹⁹⁷³ |
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53 0val Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003 Posts: 11396 Location: Irvine, CA
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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About time you came in here John.
I noted you earlier comments............but I know that the 3 brick is original to my car. (October '53)
So you're suggesting that three bricks go all the way from '53 onward?
What are your opinions about the easy accessibility of 4 brick crests? I can find 10 four bricks for every three brick. This thread's pictures even suggest the large number in collections.
Do you have any printed material that could support the change over. You always seem to find the right answer.
Bob _________________ "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." Dobee, Dobee, Do |
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IN2VWS Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2006 Posts: 2521 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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My opinion, is just that....only an opinion. I based this on original, unrestored, unmolested cars I have seen and owned.
My 1951 split Bug, which had an original 77,000km on the clock, was unmolested with the original hood, paint, moldings etc still on it, had a 4 brick version.
There are several 54/55 ovals here, unrestored and in original condition, and they all have 4 brick versions......compared to 56 and later models which have the 3 brick version.
I don't take restored cars, or accident repaired cars into consideration, as the badges have been removed to restore the car, and there is no guarantee it is the same badge gone back on the car
I have some pics I have loaded into the gallery here so they dont get lost in another Photobucket scandal. I have some more 4 brick versions somewhere.....but I just don't know where at the moment.
3 x 3 bricks, and 1 x 4 brick version
3 brick vs 4 brick. Look at the 2nd bottom row of bricks either side of the castle door.
The 4 brick version has the tip of the tail pointing to the left. also the Wolf's chest is not as furry.
All original crests had split tabs on the back.
4 brick version made by Lauer in Nuremburg.
3 brick version made by KSP
3 brick version made by PuC
_________________ ( ⫏ ⫐ )
(ọ\ ¡ /ọ)¹⁹⁵⁴ ¹⁹⁵¹
(⦷ ⥢ Ĭ ⥤ ⦷) 𝗞_𝗔_𝗥_𝗠_𝗔_𝗡_𝗡 𝓖𝓱𝓲𝓪¹⁹⁵⁶
⨴⨵--⊗--⨴⨵ 𝕊ℙ𝟚¹⁹⁷³
𝟵_𝟭_𝟰¹⁹⁷³ |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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Who has a nice 4-brick early one for sale?
I have a nice repro and an NOS 3 brick. But want a four-bricker. _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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scottyrocks Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016 Posts: 2666 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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Does anyone know why VW stopped putting these on the cars by 1963? Was it solely due to cost considerations? _________________ “If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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jays58s Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004 Posts: 2133 Location: Nor-Cal
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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To help with the 3 vs 4 brick crest debate, my all original US spec April of ‘55 has a 3 brick. |
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IN2VWS Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2006 Posts: 2521 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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jays58s wrote: |
To help with the 3 vs 4 brick crest debate, my all original US spec April of ‘55 has a 3 brick. |
....Sorry, but a car that has been repainted, and had things like taillights etc changed, in not "all original" anymore. _________________ ( ⫏ ⫐ )
(ọ\ ¡ /ọ)¹⁹⁵⁴ ¹⁹⁵¹
(⦷ ⥢ Ĭ ⥤ ⦷) 𝗞_𝗔_𝗥_𝗠_𝗔_𝗡_𝗡 𝓖𝓱𝓲𝓪¹⁹⁵⁶
⨴⨵--⊗--⨴⨵ 𝕊ℙ𝟚¹⁹⁷³
𝟵_𝟭_𝟰¹⁹⁷³ |
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jays58s Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004 Posts: 2133 Location: Nor-Cal
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:00 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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IN2VWS wrote: |
jays58s wrote: |
To help with the 3 vs 4 brick crest debate, my all original US spec April of ‘55 has a 3 brick. |
....Sorry, but a car that has been repainted, and had things like taillights etc changed, in not "all original" anymore. |
Seriously? That’s your argument? My reply was about hood crests, and my car is more original than most cars out there. The taillights were changed because the originals were stolen, would you like me to show you the original taillight holes on the rear fenders? Don’t try to pick apart someone’s car when you obviously don’t know as much about it as you think just because you feel like you did some “investigative” work by looking through my posts or pictures. |
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bwaz Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2004 Posts: 1780
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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my November 52 had the original hood and very worn 4 brick crest. It had sat since the 80's and looked like it had never been removed. |
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sled Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 6179
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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jays58s wrote: |
IN2VWS wrote: |
jays58s wrote: |
To help with the 3 vs 4 brick crest debate, my all original US spec April of ‘55 has a 3 brick. |
....Sorry, but a car that has been repainted, and had things like taillights etc changed, in not "all original" anymore. |
Seriously? That’s your argument? My reply was about hood crests, and my car is more original than most cars out there. The taillights were changed because the originals were stolen, would you like me to show you the original taillight holes on the rear fenders? Don’t try to pick apart someone’s car when you obviously don’t know as much about it as you think just because you feel like you did some “investigative” work by looking through my posts or pictures. |
hes not picking your car apart, just stating that it is not 'all original' which technically it is not.
that being said, I highly doubt someone changed out the hood crest on that car (considering how unmolested it is) but anything is possible.
frankly ANY of our cars could have been changed over the last 50-70 years, and for any of us to state with absolute certainty that any given part (aside from numbered items) are original, is a leap. Unless we found very detailed factory photos depicting the hood crest every other month in the early/mid 50's..who's to know when the change occurred? or if it even occurred..maybe as suggested there were 3 and 4 brick crests in existence at once? _________________ drive your split. |
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jays58s Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004 Posts: 2133 Location: Nor-Cal
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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sled wrote: |
jays58s wrote: |
IN2VWS wrote: |
jays58s wrote: |
To help with the 3 vs 4 brick crest debate, my all original US spec April of ‘55 has a 3 brick. |
....Sorry, but a car that has been repainted, and had things like taillights etc changed, in not "all original" anymore. |
Seriously? That’s your argument? My reply was about hood crests, and my car is more original than most cars out there. The taillights were changed because the originals were stolen, would you like me to show you the original taillight holes on the rear fenders? Don’t try to pick apart someone’s car when you obviously don’t know as much about it as you think just because you feel like you did some “investigative” work by looking through my posts or pictures. |
hes not picking your car apart, just stating that it is not 'all original' which technically it is not.
that being said, I highly doubt someone changed out the hood crest on that car (considering how unmolested it is) but anything is possible.
frankly ANY of our cars could have been changed over the last 50-70 years, and for any of us to state with absolute certainty that any given part (aside from numbered items) are original, is a leap. Unless we found very detailed factory photos depicting the hood crest every other month in the early/mid 50's..who's to know when the change occurred? or if it even occurred..maybe as suggested there were 3 and 4 brick crests in existence at once? |
To me, that was picking my car apart, but I could care less about that part of it at this point. Aside from a few things, the car more original than probably close to 90% of the cars out there. Not one panel has been changed, and I know the crest is original. Comments like his are part of why most people don’t even like posting here. This isn’t a thread to debate how original ones car is, it’s about hood crests. It’s nearly impossible as you said to have a 100% original car as it left the factory, but mine is pretty darn close, and that’s why I posted about the hood crest. Even my engine, everything on it aside from the coil is dated to the car. I’m just adding my 2 cents about hood crests, I apologize for using the word “all” instead of “mostly”. Lol |
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Yustrn JHC Controla
Joined: August 01, 2000 Posts: 5478 Location: Ovaland, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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IN2VWS wrote: |
jays58s wrote: |
To help with the 3 vs 4 brick crest debate, my all original US spec April of ‘55 has a 3 brick. |
....Sorry, but a car that has been repainted, and had things like taillights etc changed, in not "all original" anymore. |
Solid burn Branch |
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IN2VWS Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2006 Posts: 2521 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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Wow, Didn't mean to offend. If I had know you were really sensitive about your car, I wouldn't have commented.
I wasn't picking your car apart. Just saying I didn't agree with your comment that it was "all original".....Which it isn't all original. _________________ ( ⫏ ⫐ )
(ọ\ ¡ /ọ)¹⁹⁵⁴ ¹⁹⁵¹
(⦷ ⥢ Ĭ ⥤ ⦷) 𝗞_𝗔_𝗥_𝗠_𝗔_𝗡_𝗡 𝓖𝓱𝓲𝓪¹⁹⁵⁶
⨴⨵--⊗--⨴⨵ 𝕊ℙ𝟚¹⁹⁷³
𝟵_𝟭_𝟰¹⁹⁷³ |
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jays58s Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004 Posts: 2133 Location: Nor-Cal
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Hood crests |
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IN2VWS wrote: |
Wow, Didn't mean to offend. If I had know you were really sensitive about your car, I wouldn't have commented.
I wasn't picking your car apart. Just saying I didn't agree with your comment that it was "all original".....Which it isn't all original. |
Lol, I’m not sensitive, and I didn’t realize you were so sensitive about me using the word “all” instead of “mostly”. Your reply had nothing to do with the original intention of my post or this thread. I know my car isn’t 100% original, but the crest is original to the car, it’s a 3 brick, and that’s all that matters regarding this thread. This isn’t a debate post about how original my car is or isn’t. You could’ve approached it differently and asked if the crest was original because you noticed the paint and taillights weren’t, but you didn’t. |
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