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Fuel injection relief here!
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Tram Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 12:05 am    Post subject: Fuel injection relief here! Reply with quote

Hi gang- I'm new to the Samba but have been a VW (as well as Porsche, Audi, BMW, Mercedes- Benz, Volvo, Saab, etc) tech for 25 years. I was a VW apprentice, and chose Fuel Injection systems as my specialty. I cut my teeth in this thankless, Godforsaken business on Type 3 and 4 injection. I have talked dozens of my VW EFI customers over the years out of converting to carbs. The funny thing is, it's ONLY the VW people who want to convert! The Mercedes 280 and 300 series cars from the same era with 3,5 and 4,5 V8s have the SAME SYSTEM- only TWICE AS MUCH of it! Just TRY to get the owner of one of those cars to hang carbs on it....!!! If any of you have questions concerning Fuel Injection, I will do my best to help as time permits. Let's get a good thread going here and try to keep as many of these cars as original as possible- including the Fuel Injection. I'm strictly what you kids refer to as "old school" so please don't ask about aftermarket stuff or "motherfications"! Want to see HOW old school I am? Look at the pix of my Type Three Squareback in the gallery under "It's Done- FINALLY!!". It's a 66 and I love it, but I REALLY wanted a '69 but couldn't find one that hadn't been converted to Dual Satans Smile ! AWESOME site! Greetings from Oregon.

Moderator notes:
Some Fuel Injection links from a member:
Fuel Injection Manual + Manuals - Thanks to Chris 914

L-Jetronic (External link)
L-Jetronic (External link - PDF)
L-Jetronic (External link - PDF)
L-Jetronic (External link - PDF)
D-Jetronic (External link)

Also see:
How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting

Tools/parts:
Making a FI Fuel Pressure Gauge and other FI tools
If you have the real VW dealer Fuel Injection tester:
VW1218 Electronic Fuel Injection Tester - Operating Instructions
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TimGud
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2003 7:56 am    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Hello and welcome.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 8:09 am    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Welcome and thanks for your help already Tram! First of all. You mentioned that I could unplug my FI fuel pump by dunking it in diesel fuel and hooking it up to a battery and reversing polartiy to get it to shoot all the crap out. I'm not only a newbie to VW, but I'm a newbie to all things mechanical. Pardon my newbie question but...how do you reverse polarity. Once again...welcome and I can't have asked for a better resource and I know I'm not the only one.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 1:22 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Singleton- First, take the pump outta the car. Mark the terminal that the brown wire goes to. (BROWN IS GROUND- ALWAYS.). Then, get a gallon or so of diesel fuel in an open container. Make sure there's enough to COMPLETELY submerge the pump. Fuel cools the pump, so if you're running it with no fuel for it to suck up, it'll get hot real fast and then you're screwed. Hook two wires up to the terminal on the pump. Submerge the pump in the diesel. (Why diesel? It won't explode or catch fire in case of a spark, and it is essentially an oil, and will not only clean the pump, but lube it as well.) Hook the wires up to a battery with the terminal you marked hooked up to +. The pump should start expelling all kinds of crap. Run it for about 5 seconds. Repeat 2 or 3 times. If the pump won't run, try reversing polarity back and forth at the battery. If that doesn't work,have an assistant rap it with a hammer while you apply power. If it still doesn't run, you need a pump. If it starts running, do the reverse polarity thing. Once it's cleaned out, re install it and you saved yourself a couple hundred bucks. OBSERVE ALL SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, protect your eyes, hands, etc., and remember that batteries CAN explode... Not fun. Don't be afraid, but don't be stupid, hasty, or take unnecessary risks when working on your car, either. Good luck, and let me know how it works out!
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 1:23 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

That should have read "Hook up the wires to the TERMINALS (plural) on the pump, one wire to each terminal. SORRY!
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

will a type 3 fuel injection system on a 71 squareback swap right over to a 69 fuel injection. My second question is: in trying to swap it i noticed there is an extra hose coming from the fuel filler maybe some type of breather hose as it runs under the hood and to the drivers side front fender where there is a canister and then proceeds under the car thats in the 71, however the 69 does not have this. The question is do i need the hose is it important?

drew
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 8:03 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Drew-
There are some significant differences in the 1st design, (1968- 69) and the second design (1970- 73). There are differences in the components, wiring harnesses, and control units. Not knowing exactly what you are trying to accomplish (Engine exchange, fuel system exchange, etc.), it's hard to tell you exactly what you need to do. Again, I would suggest consulting a Bentley manual which will, if I'm not mistaken, show you both the first and second versions. It's not just a swap right over deal. If the FI on your 69 isn't working, try to troubleshoot it first before switching out the whole shebang. If you want to hang the 71 injection on the 69, it might be better to install the 71 engine if it's a good runner with ALL of the FI components AND the wiring harness and conrol unit. (Unplug the injection harness from the control unit, pull the big plug with the grommet thru the body, and remove it WITH the engine. DON'T unplug all the crap on the engine!! This is a LOT easier on those old brittle harnesses!!!) In that case, if there's nowhere to put that hose, plug it off. It sounds like the hose to the carbon gas fume canister, which 69 did not have. Again, if you'll let me know exactly what you're up to and why, I can probably give you a better answer and maybe save you some work.
Georg
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:23 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

I have a 69 square that is all original that I got for 100 bucks. My buddies with bugs are trying to get me to convert to carbs but I won't do it. They had to have switched to FI for a reason, right? Anyway...I replaced the pump ($argh$) and hooked everything up. Amazingly, it turned over when I got it and now it starts up no problem. However there is very little power when I put it in gear. It does drive, but slow and it wont have a chance at hills. Anything that I should check? What's the deal with the air pressure reg? Thanks. Josh
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:47 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Hi Josh-
Is this an automatic? First, check your ATF level with the engine at operating temperature. If the ATF is low, top it up and try again. If not, check the basic settings- Dwell, timing, valve adjustment, etc. Pull the spark plugs and look at them. Are they white? Brown? Black? All different colours? My most likely suspects would be timing too advanced or retarded, or a vacuum leak somewhere. The air pressure regulator (or air mass sensor) controls the mixture. There's an adjustment in it, which should only be set with an exhaust analyser, and only AFTER all the basic stuff is OK. Let me know what the plugs look like it the timing and other stuff is OK. The plugs will tell us if it's rich or lean, or if you have a vacuum leak on one side or the other of the engine.
Georg
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 10:31 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Ok, it seems to have power in first gear now (it is an automatic stickshift), but it is not shifting into second or third. Reverse works great however. I checked a couple of the plugs, they were black. My buddy (who is going to Cuesta in SLO for mechanic school) helped me with all of this. So I guess it is no longer a fuel injection problem since the engine is running a little better, but any ideas what is up with the tranny? I topped it off with ATF after I ran it for a sec. Thanks!

Josh
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 11:38 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

It's either still low on ATF, or the vacuum modulator's vacuum line is off. If your modulator drips ATF after you take the vac line off, as we say, "sie ist kaputt". Let me know, I may be able to help you find a modulator. Also, there's an adjustment in the vacuum modulating valve as well. One thing at a time, tho. If you have a Bentley manual, it'll show you the detail on all this. Find the vacuum line (the only one that goes to the trans) and make sure it's hooked up at both ends. Then, take it off the trans and see if a little ATF comes out.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 10:19 am    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

alrighty, I will try this. Thanks for the help.
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 10:19 am    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

thanks for the info, however i guess i should have made my question more clear. in the 69' square back there is no engine, no brain etc, the 71 has a good brain and engine as it used to be my driver so i am trying to do a complete swap over inc brain, wiring fuel inj system and engine from a 71 to a 69 let me know what i should look out for and how difficult i will be.

drew
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 10:07 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

Hi Drew-
That should be no problem. Just take your time and mark everything. Take clear digital or polaroid shots of the complicated stuff before you take it apart. Sometimes I do stupid stuff like colour code or take pix even though I do this stuff every day. This is especially helpful if you're only able to work on it a little at a time, and prevents you from wasting time trying to figure out where everything goes when you get back to it three weeks later! Take your time and it should come out A- OK. It won't be that difficult, only tedious. If you run into any specific problems, feel free to ask! Georg
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

This message is for the "Old School" guy.

Anyway, we just purchased a 1969 Squareback with 3-speed automatic and fuel injection. Aside from the few things that need to be done mechanically, the one that is bothering me and my husband the most is the fact of how funky the car sounds when starting up in the morning. Although it will turn over just fine the idle sounds like it wants to [and sometimes will] cut-off if you do not sit there with your foot on the gas pedal; it usually warms up in about 1-2 minutes with no further problems. We took the car to our mechanic who gave it a thorough once over, as well as a tune-up. Even though the tune-up helped, it still continues to sound funky upon being started when cold. When I asked my mechanic, who might I add works on nothing but VWs and is totally "old school" who just replied "well, thats just how they sound. . ." Okay, did it sound funky new???????? Anyway, that answer is unacceptable. Anyway, because it seems that there is virtually nobody that wants to touch my squareback, my husband has purchased the Bentley Manual and decided to try to do the repairs himself. He used to own a VW Rabbit with fuel injection that he worked on himself. In any event my husband is thinking that our problem is one of two things: (1) cold start valve or (2) temperature sensor. Can you please give us some insight.

Thanks.

Rhonda
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject: 1969 Squareback Reply with quote

This is for [email protected]:

The more I dig through the years of junk hiding everything in my squareback, the more I realize that not only has a previous owner completely mangled the wiring (ex. many connecters are "hanging loose," seeming to have no purpose), but also the wires are so old and so hardened that they need replacement. I cannot locate a wiring harness. Is there anyplace or anybody that still puts together a harness for this car, or will I need to do it myself? If I must do it myself, are there any resources other than schematics to help me do it (i.e. detailed instructions on wire lengths and connecter types)?

I think this question may help others trying to figure out a wiring catastrophe.

Thank you,
Justin

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a wiring loom from '73 for sale. Any use ?

Check my add at the classifieds.

Van der Jeught Bert,
BELGIUM
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject: Wiring Harness Reply with quote

BerT3,

I'm not that good with wiring schematics, especially when the 1969 one is drawn in a different style than the 1972+ schematic. However, from what I can read in them, along with my knowledge of some of the differences, I don't think that the 1973 harness will help me too much. Many of the wires will be missing, others will be completely useless (expecially those for the test circuits), and some will be the wrong lengths. In the end, I don't think it be much easier for me to install than one I make myself.

Thank you for your help,
Justin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll let the FI guru correct me, but I think the 73 set up might actually be better, as it gets rid of the troublesome seperate cold start valve. I know 72 is on its own when complete, but the 73 was the last for the type3, and the most improved of them. The brains and such do interchange, but in all reality, you want a complete set up, harness, ECU, sensors, etc... Someday when I get all the parts, I'd like to put a factory FI set up in my 65 Notch. The pan and main wiring harness are set up to accept it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: FUEL INJECTION RELIEF HERE!! Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
The Mercedes 280 and 300 series cars from the same era with 3,5 and 4,5 V8s have the SAME SYSTEM- only TWICE AS MUCH of it!


Have you done CIS? I have a '78 450SEL 4.5 with a hot start question. I need to distinguish between a fuel pump check valve issue and a damper/accumulator issue. . . .
Colin
( [email protected] )
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