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No_Smoking
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2015
Posts: 30
Location: Springfield OR
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 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
No. Likely injectors will be the only thing you CAN get.....but they will not be Bosch unless you get very lucky. That being said....standard motor products injectors....the most common one out there have been doing well.
You can buy a different but usable fuel pump at a basic auto parts store but will need to make a few small plumbing changes. You can likely get a fuel pressure regulator at most places....order. Fuel filter....no problem. Injector seals.... NAPA.
Most everything else is VW specialty shops. Ray |
I see. From what little research I did on them (finding new ones) they seem pretty expensive. Is there an easy way to test them?
Here they are
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trythis
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 145
Location: St Louis MO
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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I sent mine out to have them tested and cleaned by witch hunter. They came back with nice new gaskets and it was cheaper than buying new. Way worth it to me!
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Injectors seem to work well and are rarely the problem in Type 3 fuel injection. Best way is to install the whole engine and work to get it running in the car. 
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
No. Likely injectors will be the only thing you CAN get.....but they will not be Bosch unless you get very lucky. That being said....standard motor products injectors....the most common one out there have been doing well.
You can buy a different but usable fuel pump at a basic auto parts store but will need to make a few small plumbing changes. You can likely get a fuel pressure regulator at most places....order. Fuel filter....no problem. Injector seals.... NAPA.
Most everything else is VW specialty shops. Ray |
I see. From what little research I did on them (finding new ones) they seem pretty expensive. Is there an easy way to test them?
Here they are
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Expensive?.....well.....depends on what you consider expensive. You can get rebuilt injectors from Rockauto for $25.....they rebuild yours.....and I have no idea of the quality of that particular service..... and what in their mind a "rebuild" actually entails.
New injectors from either Airtex Wells or SMP....are $65 to $69.....and those have been rated as works well so far....by various Porsche 914 and VW people in other forums.
As the others have noted.....if you injectors are functional ...meaning they fire even if they spray poorly....can be cleaned and mapped by cruzin or witchhunter injector service....and its about $25 per injector. I would wager that the "rebuild" service that Rockauto lists for $25 is the same type of service.....which is NOT rebuilding. Its refurbishing.
If yours are rusted/frozen or have non functioning solenoids....a refurb service cannot fix them. But....lookong at GB manufacturings site....they may be able to actually rebuild them. Ray |
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stonecoldcars
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2013
Posts: 265
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
I have a silly question.. I have a type 3 fuel injection engine and I was wondering, is it possible to get replacement parts from a local auto parts shop? For example, can I walk into AutoZone and get new fuel injectors for it?
My engine has been sitting for a while (out of the car) and the injectors are one of the first things I pulled out to check.. they are pretty dirty and have no clue if they even work (and have no way to test them) |
I'm in Eugene. I can help ya. Look at my thread for testing injectors..
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DE Type 3
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2017
Posts: 23
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| I have a been following the info in this thread trying to get my 73 fi auto that has been sitting in my garage since 1986. I have been working on ignition system and need a little help. I've purchased several sets of spark plug wire from local auto part stores. All of the sets gave me a real short wire that goes from coil to the distributor cap. I've called several places like jbug, mid america motors and cip1 and none of these sites carry the sparks plug wires. Can anyone another source to get a set. I'm new to this but I have to ask are there other wires for another make of car that would work that I can get at local auto parts store? |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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I got mine at NAPA. I got the Belden brand wires, assembled in Mexico from German parts. They are much more robust than the Bosch wires.
But you can use an extra plug wire for the coil. Just swap the ends from your old coil wire.
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71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
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DE Type 3
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2017
Posts: 23
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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than you for the help...I will try napa tomorrow ... and switching the ends tonight...
Type 3 fi is night and day from my 70 beetle |
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Those look interesting.
Do they have "real" 90° boots.....or are they just the rubber boot forcing the wire to make a bend inside....with a normal spark plug terminal on the inside?
Ray |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Those look interesting.
Do they have "real" 90° boots.....or are they just the rubber boot forcing the wire to make a bend inside....with a normal spark plug terminal on the inside?
Ray |
I'll get a picture when I get home.
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71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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DE Type 3
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2017
Posts: 23
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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thank you ..ordered them today |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| Donnie strickland wrote: |
Here you go Ray:
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Ah! Good!
Thats worthy! While its not the Beru ceramic and copper 90° spark plug fitting.....like these
https://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts/WC/7278-01022...7584901292
its correctly made. A real 90° terminal!. I remember buying a set or two of wires back in the 90s from a FLAPS.....for a watercooled VW that needed the angled wires. Pull them out or the box...and what you actually get is a 90° angle boot with a straight wire. You had to plug them into the distributor....then force the boot down onto it force the wire to form a 90° angle.....short life.
Thank you! Ray |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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You're welcome!
These wires have a very positive locking action, both at the distributor cap and especially at the plugs, much more so than the Bosch wires.
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nitro_warrior
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2009
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| nitro_warrior wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
 my apologies on not telling you about both channels not workimg at once. I am,wo used to just using a spare pair of triggers to test this and can activate both.
Also....next time....do not hook the injectors up to 12 volts direct. You can burn one out. Its not the voltage its the amperage.
The best injector seals I have found are not the factory seals. Order a set for any VW, saab etc.....water cooled....that had CIS or CIS-E injection. They are donut shaped and fit the injector tip very tightly and are the correct viton material and easier to find. Much better seal. Ray |
Great. Will get some new seals ordered. Thanks for the tip on 12v, suspected it could cause damage so only gave them very quick tests, but wanted to confirm the RHS injectors weren't firing. Are the hand held testers safe/worthwhile to use - like this one?
Are there any diy cleaning tips. Suspect I should take all my injectors back to the shop to be serviced. |
The injectors can have their pintle stick internally or to the pintle seat when they sit with fuel inside for a long time...either from rust or fuel varnish. One is just as common as the other.
Take the injectors out....make a small stand out of cardboard so they stand vertically. Do this outside but not where they can get wet.
Take a pair of pliers and lightly twist the yellow or black plastic cap off of the tip of the injector. Its just a protector to keep from breaking off the pintle. If you find a pintle missing...that injector is shot.
If you find a heavy nub of rust on the pintle (very common)....it "may" be shot. Spray some penetrating oil on it and acrub it lightly with a toothbrush.
Then take a good carb cleaner like Berrymans B-12 Chemtool and spritz a little in the inlet end. You want to fill the injector up. Spray the outside of the tip as well.
If you have a couple of little plastic caps or something to cover the open inlet end...that great. You can use tape as well. You want the insides to soak in carb cleaner for a few hours.
Then....take each injector one at a time...hold it vertically....and push that little nub or pintle down lightly...maybe 1-2 pounds of pressure...on a clean hard surface like glass or tile. You should feel the tip kind of click as it pushes backwards against the spring. It only moves about .010"
This will allow the carb cleaner to flow out. If the pintle does not click or move....turn the injector 180 degrees.....and rap the fuel inlet end about 3-5 times...hard...on a hard surface. This can break the pintle free.
You can try pushing a little harder on the tip...about 5 pounds. If the pintle does not pop back in...the injector is shot.
You can back flush them by connecting a fuel line to the gauge port on your fuel ring. Clamp the hose tight on the end of the injector...with the inlet port in a cup.
Bump the fuel pressure 3-4 times to build pressure. Connect a 9v battery to the injector and bump it a few times to click it open. Do this until the air is out of the line and you get fuel flow out the inlet port. You just want to flush a little fuel back through the injector to remove any obvious loose crud.
Outside of this....the only DIY is buying new inlet strainers and replacing yours...or really...just send them off to Cruzin or Witchhunter and have them cleaned and flowed for $25 each. Ray |
Thanks Ray. Took the two faulty injectors out and followed your steps. Between those two injectors and my four spares I found two that worked pretty well.
I fitted them back into the engine and.... less success than I had hoped.
The engine was still reluctant to start and when it did it was still hesitant, easily stalls and cuts out when given gas. It is possible to pump the throttle and get the revs up, but simply pressing the throttle will kill it.
It was running on all four cylinders though, all the exhausts were hot.
However, after that brief bit of running, I couldn't get it started again.
Also in the short time I have taken the injectors out, the fuel pump has stopped priming when I turn the ignition key. The pump does work though as during all this testing I set up a wire to turn the fuel pump on directly and prime the system. I couldn't hear it running when the engine was thinking about starting and idling so I kept my bypass wire connected during the brief time it ran so it had good pressure. But I am unsure if the fuel pump came on once the engine fired.
One step forward, two step back. Runs on all cylinders, but still just as hard to start and keep running, and now the fuel pump doesn't prime on the ignition.
I'm at a complete loss for ideas!... |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Check to see IF you have 12 volts to the pump, AND while trying to start it. While you still have the gauge on it, make sure you have 28-30 psi while the pump is running. Also, it sounds like your timing might be slightly retarded, so I'd check that as well.
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| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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nitro_warrior
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2009
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Check to see IF you have 12 volts to the pump, AND while trying to start it. While you still have the gauge on it, make sure you have 28-30 psi while the pump is running. Also, it sounds like your timing might be slightly retarded, so I'd check that as well. |
I will do some multimeter checks. I know the fuel pump works so it must be the regulator, ignition, or a wire in between. Fuel pressure is also good when the pump is running and pretty much on 29 psi.
So timing is what I'm thinking too. It's all thats left! I have set the timing before, but years ago and I have tinkered around a lot since then, I have a strobe so that will be my next task.
One other consideration I have had is the initial start. It seems to help pumping the throttle a few times before starting. To me that suggest the cold start injector isn't firing and I didn't check it. At what point should it fire? I assume it doesn't do anything when the engine is running and warmed up? |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| nitro_warrior wrote: |
| One other consideration I have had is the initial start. It seems to help pumping the throttle a few times before starting. To me that suggest the cold start injector isn't firing and I didn't check it. At what point should it fire? I assume it doesn't do anything when the engine is running and warmed up? |
The cold starts jet, depending on the year and temp sensor, doesn't do anything above freezing (some don't operate above 10F I think), and nothing once it starts.
BTW, pumping with the key off does nothing. On a carb car it resets the cold idle cam and lets the choke plate close, but there are no such parts on the FI car. If you mean with the key on, then the TVS (late models at least) inject about 10 extra squirts with a full pedal stomp. |
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nitro_warrior
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Joined: February 23, 2009
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| nitro_warrior wrote: |
| One other consideration I have had is the initial start. It seems to help pumping the throttle a few times before starting. To me that suggest the cold start injector isn't firing and I didn't check it. At what point should it fire? I assume it doesn't do anything when the engine is running and warmed up? |
The cold starts jet, depending on the year and temp sensor, doesn't do anything above freezing (some don't operate above 10F I think), and nothing once it starts.
BTW, pumping with the key off does nothing. On a carb car it resets the cold idle cam and lets the choke plate close, but there are no such parts on the FI car. If you mean with the key on, then the TVS (late models at least) inject about 10 extra squirts with a full pedal stomp. |
Interesting regarding the cold start. It is relatively warm based on that, around 10C (50F). So it shouldn't be doing anything anyway. My car is a late 1973, and sprays fuel when the throttle is pressed and key on one position. |
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