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fuhq64
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2010
Posts: 279
Location: Dayton
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 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| fuhq64 wrote: |
| OB Customs wrote: |
| This car will be the death of me…So it has always had a cold start issue you have to cycle the key twice then start it holding the accelerator pedal down just a little for a min or two then it will idle on its own. Now that the temps are up here in Washington it has started giving me grief when its above the mid 80’s after a warm up and driving for about 30-40 min it starts to act like it wants to die so you have to feather the accelerator to keep it running and once it about say 1500-1800 it kinda clears out but it almost feels like I’m running out of fuel. It was sputtering and coughing then almost dies. I had my temp gun with me and the engine is barely 180*. Last week it was mid to upper 70’s I drove 2 hrs plus each way to a car show and no issue the weekend before that was 1 hr drive at 96* and it did it then. Any ideas? |
Mine had very similar symptoms last year that progressively got worse as the year went by. In fact, I haven't even got it to start and run on its own since i tried to start it this spring |
I tracked down the reason why my head temp sensor was giving intermittent resistance  after reading the d-jet wiring thread (https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=333830 ) i realize that a new fi harness may be imminent, but are there any solutions that can get me by short term? i already unsuccessfully attempted to reattach the original connector and destroyed it doing so
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69 Squareback
Still a n00b
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| fuhq64 wrote: |
| fuhq64 wrote: |
| OB Customs wrote: |
| This car will be the death of me…So it has always had a cold start issue you have to cycle the key twice then start it holding the accelerator pedal down just a little for a min or two then it will idle on its own. Now that the temps are up here in Washington it has started giving me grief when its above the mid 80’s after a warm up and driving for about 30-40 min it starts to act like it wants to die so you have to feather the accelerator to keep it running and once it about say 1500-1800 it kinda clears out but it almost feels like I’m running out of fuel. It was sputtering and coughing then almost dies. I had my temp gun with me and the engine is barely 180*. Last week it was mid to upper 70’s I drove 2 hrs plus each way to a car show and no issue the weekend before that was 1 hr drive at 96* and it did it then. Any ideas? |
Mine had very similar symptoms last year that progressively got worse as the year went by. In fact, I haven't even got it to start and run on its own since i tried to start it this spring |
I tracked down the reason why my head temp sensor was giving intermittent resistance after reading the d-jet wiring thread (https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=333830 ) i realize that a new fi harness may be imminent, but are there any solutions that can get me by short term? i already unsuccessfully attempted to reattach the original connector and destroyed it doing so |
The interesting thing is that the card/board edge connector you show in that picture is either very early...or not from a VW. That type of board edge connector uses an F shaped connector.
I "think" that is a Motorola style plug. Not saying its an issue...just that its not a familiar card edge connector for D-jet...to me.
That type of plug though and the connector it uses...in the electronics world...IS or was... more common than what most D-jet actually used. It may be easier to find crimp connectors for if you needed to build from scratch.
That being said....when building a new harness... I try not to reuse anything from the original harness but very good original component end plug bodies...and the ECU end plug with connectors...if I do not have new female ECU connectors to crimp on....and the big rubber grommet where the harness enters the engine compartment.
The nice thing about the D-jet harness....and the way the ECU is shielded inside of the car...unless the harness and car were just ultra mangled and weathered.....the section of harness from the ECU plug to the big rubber body grommet where it enters the engine compartment...is usually in almost pristine shape.
It was out of the heat, out of sunlight, out of the dust and usually out of the weather. And if it spent its whole life with the gray ECU slot cover in place....so that pigtail section from the ECU to the engine compartment....is usually pristine.
So....find an old harness....and CHOP the harness off about 4-6" from the clamp on the outside of the ECU.
Then....measure all 23 wires and cut them to the Exact same length...from where the female connector is crimped on. You can now use solid, non insulated crimp butt connectors...and use a proper ratcheting crimper...so attache new wire to the old connectors. Then heat shrink them
Make the cut length of the old wires ...so that all of the splices will be inside of the gray cover for the ECU enclosure so that when you slide the cover back on...it looks just like factory.
Like this:
"Shingle" wires out from where they crimp to the female "Y" connectors....so that each wire is the same length. You can make each following wire a few mm longer or shorter....just to have clearance between the butt splices so they lay flat...but keep them as similar as possible.
When I go to junk yards and find crusty crapped up D-jet harnesses with pristine ECU plugs...I cut off and save pigtails like this.
The rest of the harness...I use Teflon clad, silver plated wire and skip the factory style vinyl or polyolefin harness cover. Unless you are building a concors style restoration where the look has to be perfect...go for function.
When connection the ECU pigtail to the new harness loom....use non-insulated butt connectors like these
or if going from one side of wire to a smaller wire and connecting together...use these
Crimp the non-insulated butt splices with a coaxial connector crimp die like one of these:
The six sided hex compression from this die set type will compress the wire strands to a perfect hermetic seal inside. There is no strain relief on these butt connectors but since you are heat shrinking them...and they will be locked inside of the ECU enclosure and held by the card edge connector on one end and the harness clamp outside the ECU on the other...so its no issue.
For the harness jacketing....I suggest using this:
https://www.techflex.com/general-purpose/f360-f6-pet-non-split
Its high temperature...high enough, and is not a split cover so it wraps around and expands. If you want it looking a little more like stock....or want it more water proof...if you look on the site at that link under the "electrical insulation" tab...you can get this sleeving in silicone coated.
Or...you can take a length of their normal 360* moderate high temp wrap...slip it onto a wood dowel that you spray a little silicone on...and then smoothly slather the outside with high temp RTV....and it looks and works great.
Ray |
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LouInSD
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2017
Posts: 2
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Last edited by LouInSD on Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| LouInSD wrote: |
Hey all,
I've got a 76 Westy. Bought it with a bad engine, pulled it out, it was carburated. Now attempting to go back to FI. Found another used engine apparently out of a 79. After restoring the wiring that was cut I was able to confirm that the double relay is now working fine. Fuel pump runs when starter is activated. Fuel pump runs when air flap is pushed open. I have good spark. Not getting a pulse at the injectors. I do have continuity and pulse at the white wire on the coil. Went through and checked all the ohm readings at the ecu connector and they all look fine, except for the cylinder head temp sensor. It's showing an open. My understanding is that this might cause a bad fuel mixture. Could this possibly be causing the no pulse at the injectors?
What else should I be checking to get to the bottom of this no pulse thing before I go ahead and replace the ECU?
Thanks in advance
Lou |
Its rarely if ever the ECU. Check all of your grounds and yes....fix the cylinder head temp sensor. Its resistance to ground. Ray |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| LouInSD wrote: |
Hey all,
I've got a 76 Westy. Bought it with a bad engine, pulled it out, it was carburated. Now attempting to go back to FI. Found another used engine apparently out of a 79. After restoring the wiring that was cut I was able to confirm that the double relay is now working fine. Fuel pump runs when starter is activated. Fuel pump runs when air flap is pushed open. I have good spark. Not getting a pulse at the injectors. I do have continuity and pulse at the white wire on the coil. Went through and checked all the ohm readings at the ecu connector and they all look fine, except for the cylinder head temp sensor. It's showing an open. My understanding is that this might cause a bad fuel mixture. Could this possibly be causing the no pulse at the injectors?
What else should I be checking to get to the bottom of this no pulse thing before I go ahead and replace the ECU?
Thanks in advance
Lou |
Its rarely if ever the ECU. Check all of your grounds and yes....fix the cylinder head temp sensor. Its resistance to ground. Ray |
1. If this is a '79 make sure you have spark first and that the ignition system is working properly. '79 is a strange bird with Hall effect ignition and an O2 Lambda system; it's really closer to an air cooled Vanagon setup than earlier Bus systems.
If you can verify spark and that you actually have fuel pressure when the pump runs then there's a way to test the harness through the main ECU plug. Sounds like something is open someplace.
And yeah, you for sure need a working temp sensor as Ray pointed out.
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69Herbie
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Lexington,NC
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| Ok so first time actually posting a question in here, I’ve got a 71’ fastback fuel injected I’ve went through almost the whole car and still have trouble from time to time with it. So you will be driving down the road running great and all of a sudden it dies, no sputter just like I cut the switch off, but I can unplug the fuel pump relay momentarily and it picks right back up and drives a couple seconds and I have to “toggle” the fuel pump on and off to get where I’m going. It does it sometimes and sometimes it will go for days without a hiccup. I’ve replaced points, condenser, coil, injector points, plugs, wires, cap, and rotor, injectors, fuel filters, about everything that I can think of is new. Reason for replacing most of it was, I bought the car it needed an engine so I tried to replace and refresh everything else to go with the engine. Any ideas or direction would be greatly appreciated. Oh and fuel pressure gauge doesn’t seem to fluctuate when it’s acting stupid although it’s hard to see going down the road toggling the relay, but when I shut it off the gauge still reads 28-30psi. [/img] |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| A sudden "quit" is almost always electrical (and it could be ignition, not FI, so check that first). The harnesses are old and you could have a broken wire or loose connector that fails intermittently from temperature or vibration. Remember that even if the plastic part of a connector fits tightly, the electrical contacts inside can still be flakey and cause failures. The can be carefully taken apart and tightened or replaced. There are threads about doing this. |
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mackaymatt
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017
Posts: 11
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| Check your fuse block. I've had many intermittent issues with my 69 Square and most of them were caused by corroded fuses or loose connections. |
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91Transporter16"
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2011
Posts: 258
Location: Tualatin Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Tram I read as much as I could on your post trying to figure out the starting problem I'm having with a 72 Fastback I just got from a friend. It cranks and will not start. Here is what I have done so far:
checked fuel pressure, good
power to the ECU,
Signal from distributor pulsing 5v to ECU,
12v to terminals on ECU.
I can run the engine with starting fluid through the throttle body and keep it
running like that. I believe the only thing I'm missing is a signal to the injectors. I have gone through the sensors but maybe I'm missing something. Also I have gotten another ECU and same problem.
Thanks
Tony
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| 69Herbie wrote: |
| Ok so first time actually posting a question in here, I’ve got a 71’ fastback fuel injected I’ve went through almost the whole car and still have trouble from time to time with it. So you will be driving down the road running great and all of a sudden it dies, no sputter just like I cut the switch off, but I can unplug the fuel pump relay momentarily and it picks right back up and drives a couple seconds and I have to “toggle” the fuel pump on and off to get where I’m going. It does it sometimes and sometimes it will go for days without a hiccup. I’ve replaced points, condenser, coil, injector points, plugs, wires, cap, and rotor, injectors, fuel filters, about everything that I can think of is new. Reason for replacing most of it was, I bought the car it needed an engine so I tried to replace and refresh everything else to go with the engine. Any ideas or direction would be greatly appreciated. Oh and fuel pressure gauge doesn’t seem to fluctuate when it’s acting stupid although it’s hard to see going down the road toggling the relay, but when I shut it off the gauge still reads 28-30psi. [/img] |
Do you hear the FP relay clicking on/off?
I'd look at the #19 wire in the engine compartment (ECU FP relay ground wire). This connector might be breaking, and causing the intermittent.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
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| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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69Herbie
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Lexington,NC
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Yes I hear the fuel pump relay click on and off ever time I touch the wire to it under the steering column going down the road. I babied it for probably 20 miles like that the other day trying to get home. It started doing it intermittently about a month ago. It would do that sometimes just sitting still and I could unplug the fuel pump relay and it would start and as soon as I would plug the fuel pump relay back on it would die so I started just touching the wire for a split second and after a few times I would be able to replug it back in and it would run for days like nothing ever happened, so it was really hard to duplicate while at home or the shop to try and pinpoint a starting point. I haven’t been able to look at it since it acted stupid yesterday I haven’t tried to start it again. But I’m gonna try when I get home and check all the wires and connections for the millionth time lol as suggested. It’s gotta be something simple but just hard to pinpoint, just thought maybe someone else had the same issue at some point. I was thinking more of the fuel pressure regulator sticking, if that’s even possible or maybe the fuel injection relay not energizing intermittently. Anything is possible I guess with this old style fuel injection on a 47 year old car. I’m used to more modern cars but love a challenge. All I can say is type 3 sure ain’t no vw bug. Lol.
Update—— replaced the injector points after checking fuel pump relay and wiring and it fired up and runs again!!!!
Thanks for all the help!!!! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| 69Herbie wrote: |
Yes I hear the fuel pump relay click on and off ever time I touch the wire to it under the steering column going down the road. I babied it for probably 20 miles like that the other day trying to get home. It started doing it intermittently about a month ago. It would do that sometimes just sitting still and I could unplug the fuel pump relay and it would start and as soon as I would plug the fuel pump relay back on it would die so I started just touching the wire for a split second and after a few times I would be able to replug it back in and it would run for days like nothing ever happened, so it was really hard to duplicate while at home or the shop to try and pinpoint a starting point. I haven’t been able to look at it since it acted stupid yesterday I haven’t tried to start it again. But I’m gonna try when I get home and check all the wires and connections for the millionth time lol as suggested. It’s gotta be something simple but just hard to pinpoint, just thought maybe someone else had the same issue at some point. I was thinking more of the fuel pressure regulator sticking, if that’s even possible or maybe the fuel injection relay not energizing intermittently. Anything is possible I guess with this old style fuel injection on a 47 year old car. I’m used to more modern cars but love a challenge. All I can say is type 3 sure ain’t no vw bug. Lol.
Update—— replaced the injector points after checking fuel pump relay and wiring and it fired up and runs again!!!!
Thanks for all the help!!!! |
Question....what electrical test(s) did you do to ascertain it was the trigger points?
I know what you "should" test.....just trying to see if you do!   ......because about 98% of the time with trigger points.......if you do not read any faults (resistance and insulation of + side to ground) and/or if the points are clean of tarnish and grease ...........IF swapping triggers that show no issues.....fixes the fault.....then about 98% of the time its the three pin plug having issues with proper contact on the male pin.
In fact.....all trigger plates in D-jet injected engines have some lecel of problem with the EFI trigger plug contacts.
Ray |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Okie dokie, I'm sure similar has been asked and answered, but 200 some pages is a lot to try and find something through! I saw a similar issue on the first page, but my atf is full. I have a 71 Square at/fi that has a strange running issue wherein I can get it to idle fine, and it'll rev in neutral, but as soon as it's time to drive it'll drive a few feet at a good rpm, then if I'm giving it any pressure on the gas pedal it tries to quit on me. But if I let go of the pedal in drive, it'll shuffle around like an old man no problems. Even the slightest hint of pressure on the pedal makes it try to quit. This issue persists until the engine is restarted once or twice. Giving it a lot of air as if it was getting too much gas kills it almost immediately in this situation.
No, I dont have a pressure gauge, I know that's bad on my part. I'll pick one up tomorrow. Also: I'm running the regulator out of my 72 which was putting out 34 when I had a friend test it before removal from the 72, and an e2000 fuel pump, brand new. New gas in the tank. Points, timing, and valves have been done as per usual.
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| AT/FI cars really cannot tolerate ANY vacuum leaks, so check all hoses, the MPS, the tranny governor, and injector seals for leaks. Then fuel pressure, and then electrical checks. |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| AT/FI cars really cannot tolerate ANY vacuum leaks, so check all hoses, the MPS, the tranny governor, and injector seals for leaks. Then fuel pressure, and then electrical checks. |
I'll do that then. Where's the governor? Still new to the automatic trans 
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'71 Shantung Yellow AT/FI Squareback |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| Under the car, at the back end of the tranny (rear of car), you'll find there's only one hose, and it plugs into the governor. First check is to see if you have fluid in that hose... just pull the hose off and let it drip. Don't pull the governor off just yet; it's unlikely to be the issue, but eliminating a little pool of fluid that can confuse the FI is a good first step. |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Under the car, at the back end of the tranny (rear of car), you'll find there's only one hose, and it plugs into the governor. First check is to see if you have fluid in that hose... just pull the hose off and let it drip. Don't pull the governor off just yet; it's unlikely to be the issue, but eliminating a little pool of fluid that can confuse the FI is a good first step. |
Little bit of fluid in it, drained it, still no luck, however I think I may have found the issue but cannot mess with it today as it's pouring. The PO placed the in line filter after the fuel pump, which in turned I installed the new one in the same place. The filter is after the pump in the line, I'd assume killing pressure and thus the car?
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'71 Shantung Yellow AT/FI Squareback |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| Yes, that filter belongs on the suction side. between the pump and the tank. |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Yes, that filter belongs on the suction side. between the pump and the tank. |
Suhweet. Thank you for the help! I'll post tomorrow on any updates to running factor. Good time to swap the filter anyways.
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'71 Shantung Yellow AT/FI Squareback |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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