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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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The TPS is electrical, not vacuum-related, and is not in operation at idle. If unplugging it changes your idle, it may be broken or seriously mis-adjusted.
Best way to eliminate vacuum leaks is to replace all hoses and injector seals. PITA but otherwise you chase ghosts.
You can also have vacuum leaks in the MPS and Pressure Switch. Sucking on them and using your tongue to see if they hold vacuum is all you need to test the devices themselves, but the hose connections can still leak. |
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tbb Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2017 Posts: 84 Location: Van Nuys, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks KTphil, what are some ways to test if a tps isn’t adjusted properly or broken? (2 prong) |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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The old 2-prong was very simple.
What manual do you have? While most messed up the later (4- and 5-pin style), they generally have the procedure correct for the 2-pin. |
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tbb Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2017 Posts: 84 Location: Van Nuys, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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I've got the Bentley brown book. Looking at page 25 under "Fuel System" 10.7 Adjusting Throttle Valve Switch. I just made the adjustment. but my throttle cable was a bit loose so when twisting the switch I never heard the "click" So I tightened the throttle cable slightly and adjusted the switch to 2 degrees past the "click"
I then pulled the plug to the TPS and tested ohms from terminal to terminal. 0.5ohms when the butterfly is closed, then when I open the butterfly to the "click" I get O.L.
Is this correct?
I'll go for a test ride later today so see if there is any difference. But still puzzled to why the engine takes longer to start when its warm than when its cold? could one of my temp sensors be off? |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1931 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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So, I’ve being having some issues with FI. Here is what I’ve done that has started a downward spiral.
Backstory: I got this car about a year ago with ~36,000miles and it had been sitting it a barn for 45 years non-running. I got it running and going well after finding the distributor and trigger points were bad. I put 6k on it with little troubles, hot starts a bit of a pain but it was pretty good. Then it started getting colder and I knew I had a bad fuel pressure regulator that didn’t hold pressure, but it regulated. So I got a good used one and the system held pressure after being shut off and wasn’t leaking down. I had taken it for a drive after replacing it, it was great. A couple days later when I went to go for a drive, no start. When I took the injectors out it started and ran rough. It was still being a pain and got it going. I may have took it for a few drives. Then it sat for 2 weeks and it wouldn’t crank, the starter went out. Fixed one that I had that had previously been in my Squareback. Then, I got it running and I am struggling to start it. I don’t have the terminal 30 on the starter. The cold start wire is hooked up on the same terminal as the wire from the ignition switch on the solenoid. So I believe it’s correct. So now When I start it, it immediately starts but then stalls. It takes a ton of tries, sometimes around 5. If I give it gas it still cuts out. It seems to be getting worse. It takes about a minute where it will stop cutting out but then it super jerky and wants to stall when you put it in gear. Then it warms up and run great. Hot starts fine, but leave it for a few hours and it starts awful, horribly miserable. Where I’m at it’s currently freezing most days. One thing was last week if I remember right it was starting and running great at the tap of the key and it started. Then I had messed the with cold start injector and that has seemed to messed something up.
Thoughts?
Thanks, Aiden _________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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You might try unplugging your cold start injector (the 2 terminal plug) and try a cold start in the morning and see if that makes a difference. On my 71 Notch I left the cold start parts off it, and it still started at 0 degrees and would run clean. I'm wondering if you have a leaking cold start injector, or maybe a bad cold start temp sensor (internally shorted, or getting power (from the starter) when it shouldn't be getting power).
You might want to find out what temp your sensor runs at (should be stamped on the end), as you might want to find a lower temp one (one operates at 40*F and the other at 28*F). But, since you're getting icing on your end intake pieces, I'm thinking your intake is getting fuel shot into the plenum by the cold start system. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1931 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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I did it as normal to see if the changes I made helped. I tried unplugging it and it wouldn't fire at all. So I unplugged the connection at the distributor and it started running for a little bit better for a few seconds. Then I realized I had left the CHT sensor unplugged from yesterday's testing. Yesterday, I had taken if for a drive and it was about 6 miles and it was disconnected. But still after hooking it back up it was being a pain. It was still showing he same symptoms. as without it plugged in. Would having it unplugged have leaned out the fuel/air mixture? So Unplugging the cold start valve made it worse. Unplugging at the trigger points makes it run great till the gas runs out from cold start injector. So could the trigger points be going bad? I wonder if the fuel pressure is too high causing injectors to stick. When I unplug from the distributor I have to crank it for a few seconds and it starts to run. Does it sound like flooding? I also think I may be having issues with the connections at the injector from reading other threads. I will also check to see if there are anything else unplugged. Today was the first day where I had to drive something else to school/work because the square wouldn't start _________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Ceckert64 wrote: |
I did it as normal to see if the changes I made helped. I tried unplugging it and it wouldn't fire at all. So I unplugged the connection at the distributor and it started running for a little bit better for a few seconds. Then I realized I had left the CHT sensor unplugged from yesterday's testing. Yesterday, I had taken if for a drive and it was about 6 miles and it was disconnected. But still after hooking it back up it was being a pain. It was still showing he same symptoms. as without it plugged in. Would having it unplugged have leaned out the fuel/air mixture? So Unplugging the cold start valve made it worse. Unplugging at the trigger points makes it run great till the gas runs out from cold start injector. So could the trigger points be going bad? I wonder if the fuel pressure is too high causing injectors to stick. When I unplug from the distributor I have to crank it for a few seconds and it starts to run. Does it sound like flooding? I also think I may be having issues with the connections at the injector from reading other threads. I will also check to see if there are anything else unplugged. Today was the first day where I had to drive something else to school/work because the square wouldn't start |
Sounds like you want to put a pressure gauge on it and see where you're at pressure wise regardless. You could be dealing with a plugged return line, which will raise your pressure. I'd start there. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1931 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
Ceckert64 wrote: |
I did it as normal to see if the changes I made helped. I tried unplugging it and it wouldn't fire at all. So I unplugged the connection at the distributor and it started running for a little bit better for a few seconds. Then I realized I had left the CHT sensor unplugged from yesterday's testing. Yesterday, I had taken if for a drive and it was about 6 miles and it was disconnected. But still after hooking it back up it was being a pain. It was still showing he same symptoms. as without it plugged in. Would having it unplugged have leaned out the fuel/air mixture? So Unplugging the cold start valve made it worse. Unplugging at the trigger points makes it run great till the gas runs out from cold start injector. So could the trigger points be going bad? I wonder if the fuel pressure is too high causing injectors to stick. When I unplug from the distributor I have to crank it for a few seconds and it starts to run. Does it sound like flooding? I also think I may be having issues with the connections at the injector from reading other threads. I will also check to see if there are anything else unplugged. Today was the first day where I had to drive something else to school/work because the square wouldn't start |
Sounds like you want to put a pressure gauge on it and see where you're at pressure wise regardless. You could be dealing with a plugged return line, which will raise your pressure. I'd start there. |
That would make a ton of sense, it seems like it is running way rich on startup. I got home from school and got it far enough to the point to ouch it into the garage so let’s see what I find! _________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Basics:
- Never assume it's the FI... give it a careful tune-up including valve adjustment and ignition timing first.
- Verify running fuel pressure.
- Eliminate all potential vacuum leaks. Looking isn't enough. Best to just replace seals and hoses you didn't personally replace in the last 2 years.
- Check electrical connections. Not just the plastic connector housings, the actual electrical contact. Best done by pulling the ECU and its connector, and going through every circuit with a VOM while jiggling wires. This checks both wiring and the sensors connected to it. Most manuals have the sequence of checks and values. You don't need the fancy testers. This isn't 100% perfect but may catch 80-90% of wiring faults. |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1931 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Victory!!!! I figured it out!!! It was the CHT sensor 1 on the head. It was what I wanted to check yesterday but the engine was hot so I wasn’t sure if it was accurate. An I hadn’t driven with it unplugged. So I had a 1971 411 CHT and a 1969 T3 CHT and they both tested around 3000 resistance cold. The one in Joann was at 1200 Resistance cold and when you did it the resistance kept going up at a constant rate and changing. I pulled the one out of Joann and cleaned it up and the part number matches the 411 CHT and was the same part, yea! I put the 411 one in, turn the key, it starts immediately and idles smooth as butter and just goes. So it was the CHT sensor. I was thinking it was a temp sensor because it was starting very rich to where it wouldn’t run. I will add some more things later. I will still go through and do a tune up though. All the hoses are 10months old, the dwell was at 50 when I checked it yesterday, valves were adjusted at most 2k ago.
I’m happy it’s fixed
Thanks, Aiden _________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Ceckert64 wrote: |
Victory!!!! I figured it out!!! It was the CHT sensor 1 on the head. It was what I wanted to check yesterday but the engine was hot so I wasn’t sure if it was accurate. An I hadn’t driven with it unplugged. So I had a 1971 411 CHT and a 1969 T3 CHT and they both tested around 3000 resistance cold. The one in Joann was at 1200 Resistance cold and when you did it the resistance kept going up at a constant rate and changing. I pulled the one out of Joann and cleaned it up and the part number matches the 411 CHT and was the same part, yea! I put the 411 one in, turn the key, it starts immediately and idles smooth as butter and just goes. So it was the CHT sensor. I was thinking it was a temp sensor because it was starting very rich to where it wouldn’t run. I will add some more things later. I will still go through and do a tune up though. All the hoses are 10months old, the dwell was at 50 when I checked it yesterday, valves were adjusted at most 2k ago.
I’m happy it’s fixed
Thanks, Aiden |
Glad to hear that you found your problem. I should have guessed that the CHT was your issue, as it shouldn't be able to run with it disconnected. I'm guessing it must have had a strand connecting to allow it to run, and you finally bumped it hard enough to break. While it might be a bad thing, it's also a good thing in that it gives you some diagnostic experience, and will be something you'll remember down the road when it does something like that again. Keep in mind they do fail, and will fail when they want to. But checking the fuel pressure never hurts, as the system is designed to run at a constant pressure. Congrats on fixing it. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1931 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks! I don’t think it ran other than the cold start valve for a few seconds disconnected. I wasn’t running with it either with it connected I think the resistance it was giving was making it look like the engine was running super lean causing it to “correct” it and dump fuel in. So all the previous Starting issues I had could have been caused by this. I unhooked it yesterday after a 6mile drive and when I tested it I wasn’t sure if my reading was accurate or not because it was hot and forgot to reconnect it so start this morning. Slowly I keep getting better at troubleshooting this system and I think I’m getting close to have a hole extra FI system in my front trunk. I now have a spare temp sensor in the trunk that works.
I was going to do fuel pressure but I was clumsy as I was getting ready to hook the pressure tester up and dropped it and the needle read 10psi not hooked to anything now
I took it on a drive, it started better than the modern cars in my family and starts at the touch of the key again with giving it zero gas.
Slowly, I will get this tuned in better. I will say it is a fairly forgiving system sometimes and can have some big issues but sometimes still manage to run and drive. _________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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tbb Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2017 Posts: 84 Location: Van Nuys, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Oops! Accidentally pulled out the wires going to my TPS. Any recommendations to where I can get replacement connectors? What size is this connector?
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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tbb Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2017 Posts: 84 Location: Van Nuys, CA
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MarcVoss Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2019 Posts: 65 Location: DE, Munich
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Complete reproduced sets are also available (German site, but also english spoken)
https://www.djetparts.com/ _________________ Marc |
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jbillow Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2015 Posts: 72 Location: Gansevoort, NY
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Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Hi guys, I've decided to re wire my injection harness. I've read some past and recent posts in this forum and have follwed some parts links, (thanks, KTPhil, MarcVoss, Tram and Bobnotch to name a few) I've also found a link to pictures of "Jeffs" artwork, very nice. I believe I've been able to find most connectors, terminals and boots. However my current questions are: are the terminals for the ECU connector available or am I in for the ardous task of prying each terminal apart in hopes I don't destroy any? I've visited one site for the shrink tubing but have no idea what sizes (diameters) I need. Any opinions, information and direction is appreciateed. Thank you.
Joe
https://www.djetparts.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Female-Terminals-connector-insulated/dp/B01MQ31H7Z
https://www.finjector.com/eng/heat_shrink_tubes-56 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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I think those are unique. You may have to carefully splice each wire stub. |
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jbillow Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2015 Posts: 72 Location: Gansevoort, NY
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks Phil, would soldering and heat shrink be my best? |
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