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jbillow Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2015 Posts: 72 Location: Gansevoort, NY
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks Phil, would soldering and heat shrink be my best? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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jbillow wrote: |
Thanks Phil, would soldering and heat shrink be my best? |
NO.....DO NOT...solder anything within the harness wire system.
Soldering sucks. Solder joints are not now and never have been and never will be used in fuel injection wiring.....and are no longer used in automotive at all for very good reasons.......except in rare cases where a wire (which is flexible) is being soldered to a rigid circuit board where ther are no traces or solder pads. At lease here strain relief and proper anti-corrosion coatings can be applied.
Even then...most manufacturers if they can afford the space on the board....will solder a plug socket onto the board. Solder joints entrain voids that corrode, are susceptible to long term vibration issues and can add resistance into the circuit etc.
So that is my rant on soldering. Crimping is VERY superior. The only cases where solder IS superior is in rockets and missiles where large high power wires are first braided together and then soldered to make a joint that can handle the G-forces. Its purely mechanical ....and only has to work once.
The "Y" shaped connectors at the ECU....yes...."MAYBE" you can get them from Tyco/AMP......unless they have finally sold out to the handful of people in the US who buy them to repair and rebuild harnesses.
Last time I spoke to Tyco back in about 2002 or so...they had about 25,000 pieces in stock. They were also not for sale at that point in time because they were proprietary to Robert Bosch and AMP.
I had a long conversation with them and they said....while yes...they noted that something like less than 1000 pieces had been taken out of stock by Bosch spanning 2 decades.....and that yes...they realize that they are obsolete and the systems that use them are no longer produced....but they STILL could not sell them because they were proprietary. I even got through to the then VP of sales at VW of America on the phone....he tried to help but could not.
So some years later....mid 2000's?....apparently they started selling them. People like Brad Anders and the few here that build harnesses.....have been buying them.
Bear in mind.....that each harness requires 23 connectors. Add in a couple of spares for crimping mistakes....thats 25. That means that if since then with maybe 5-6 people building harnesses in the US....if 1000 harnesses have been built in the past 10 years....they are likely gone.
The guys at AMP...sympathized with me. They could not sell me any but said they could send me a sample of them. The guy asked ..."so how many would a good sample be?" ......without hesitation...I said "25 please".....he said "okie dokie!".
So I have one set to build one factory new harness for myself.
So back to your question:
The forked connectors and the wires attached to them....if the gray plastic shield on the ECU has been in place...are usually pristine wires and connections.
I have done this very successfully. Cut all of the wires off one at a time...clean...with a sharp snipper...about 2 inches from the connector so you have room for a butt splice.
So ....then you can crimp on a butt terminal, heat shrink it and connect it to the proper new wires. All of the butt connectors can be hidden inside the gray plastic shield. Something like this
This sketch is from about 6 pages back in this thread.
For the butt splices....DO NOT use those shitty red, blue and yellow ones you buy at home depot.
Good:
you can use "SEAMLESS" non insulated, tin plated copper metal butt splices and install heat shrink over them: like these
https://www.pacergroup.net/seamless-tinned-butt-sp...IkQAvD_BwE
You can find them all over the internet. Make sure you look for "tinned" and seamless"
Better:
These are high quality seamless splices with heat shrink built into it...kinda pricey.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/nylonsplices.php
These are very good too. They have nylon as the outer shield and are tin plated copper seamless.
https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-SEAMLESS-Connectors-Non-Flared-PartsTwins/dp/B078GDFJK3
https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-SEAMLESS-Splice-Connectors-Non-Flared/dp/B078GB87ZS
Dont let the red blue and yellow fool you. These are BETTER than the hardware store stuff...because the outer cover is nylon...and those cheap terminals from teh hardware store are not "SEAMLESS"...so when you crimp them the tube splits and the wires fray.
Probably some of the best:
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex,-...XIQAvD_BwE
These have their own heat shrink tubing applied. They are seamless, tin plated copper. Yes...at digikey in quantities of 10 they are 61 cents each...but thats really cheap.
And...crimp these with a real ratcheting crimper tool and not one of those cheap, hardware "D" crimpers.
Ray |
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jbillow Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2015 Posts: 72 Location: Gansevoort, NY
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
jbillow wrote: |
Thanks Phil, would soldering and heat shrink be my best? |
NO.....DO NOT...solder anything within the harness wire system.
Soldering sucks. Solder joints are not now and never have been and never will be used in fuel injection wiring.....and are no longer used in automotive at all for very good reasons.......except in rare cases where a wire (which is flexible) is being soldered to a rigid circuit board where ther are no traces or solder pads. At lease here strain relief and proper anti-corrosion coatings can be applied.
Even then...most manufacturers if they can afford the space on the board....will solder a plug socket onto the board. Solder joints entrain voids that corrode, are susceptible to long term vibration issues and can add resistance into the circuit etc.
So that is my rant on soldering. Crimping is VERY superior. The only cases where solder IS superior is in rockets and missiles where large high power wires are first braided together and then soldered to make a joint that can handle the G-forces. Its purely mechanical ....and only has to work once.
The "Y" shaped connectors at the ECU....yes...."MAYBE" you can get them from Tyco/AMP......unless they have finally sold out to the handful of people in the US who buy them to repair and rebuild harnesses.
Last time I spoke to Tyco back in about 2002 or so...they had about 25,000 pieces in stock. They were also not for sale at that point in time because they were proprietary to Robert Bosch and AMP.
I had a long conversation with them and they said....while yes...they noted that something like less than 1000 pieces had been taken out of stock by Bosch spanning 2 decades.....and that yes...they realize that they are obsolete and the systems that use them are no longer produced....but they STILL could not sell them because they were proprietary. I even got through to the then VP of sales at VW of America on the phone....he tried to help but could not.
So some years later....mid 2000's?....apparently they started selling them. People like Brad Anders and the few here that build harnesses.....have been buying them.
Bear in mind.....that each harness requires 23 connectors. Add in a couple of spares for crimping mistakes....thats 25. That means that if since then with maybe 5-6 people building harnesses in the US....if 1000 harnesses have been built in the past 10 years....they are likely gone.
The guys at AMP...sympathized with me. They could not sell me any but said they could send me a sample of them. The guy asked ..."so how many would a good sample be?" ......without hesitation...I said "25 please".....he said "okie dokie!".
So I have one set to build one factory new harness for myself.
So back to your question:
The forked connectors and the wires attached to them....if the gray plastic shield on the ECU has been in place...are usually pristine wires and connections.
I have done this very successfully. Cut all of the wires off one at a time...clean...with a sharp snipper...about 2 inches from the connector so you have room for a butt splice.
So ....then you can crimp on a butt terminal, heat shrink it and connect it to the proper new wires. All of the butt connectors can be hidden inside the gray plastic shield. Something like this
This sketch is from about 6 pages back in this thread.
For the butt splices....DO NOT use those shitty red, blue and yellow ones you buy at home depot.
Good:
you can use "SEAMLESS" non insulated, tin plated copper metal butt splices and install heat shrink over them: like these
https://www.pacergroup.net/seamless-tinned-butt-sp...IkQAvD_BwE
You can find them all over the internet. Make sure you look for "tinned" and seamless"
Better:
These are high quality seamless splices with heat shrink built into it...kinda pricey.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/nylonsplices.php
These are very good too. They have nylon as the outer shield and are tin plated copper seamless.
https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-SEAMLESS-Connectors-Non-Flared-PartsTwins/dp/B078GDFJK3
https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-SEAMLESS-Splice-Connectors-Non-Flared/dp/B078GB87ZS
Dont let the red blue and yellow fool you. These are BETTER than the hardware store stuff...because the outer cover is nylon...and those cheap terminals from teh hardware store are not "SEAMLESS"...so when you crimp them the tube splits and the wires fray.
Probably some of the best:
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex,-...XIQAvD_BwE
These have their own heat shrink tubing applied. They are seamless, tin plated copper. Yes...at digikey in quantities of 10 they are 61 cents each...but thats really cheap.
And...crimp these with a real ratcheting crimper tool and not one of those cheap, hardware "D" crimpers.
Ray |
Thank you Ray, that was very informative and helpful. I will try to contact Tyco/Amp but if not successful go the butt connector route, Do you have any insight as to the proper gray shielding for the harness, vendor and sizes? |
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timeschange1961 Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Janesville, California
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Hello, I've spent a long time searching this site and perhaps someone else has addressed this but does anyone have a simple wiring diagram that would allow me to put a type 3 fuel injected engine into a trike, buggy or test stand? Yes there are wiring diagram of whole type 3s here and a small separate diagram showing fuel injection, but what I am looking for is a simple diagram showing how to wire a ecu and fi type 3 into a test stand. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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timeschange1961 wrote: |
Hello, I've spent a long time searching this site and perhaps someone else has addressed this but does anyone have a simple wiring diagram that would allow me to put a type 3 fuel injected engine into a trike, buggy or test stand? Yes there are wiring diagram of whole type 3s here and a small separate diagram showing fuel injection, but what I am looking for is a simple diagram showing how to wire a ecu and fi type 3 into a test stand. |
Wire in your fuel pump and relay and make sure your pump and pressure regulator has a return to your fuel tank. Wire in your FI power relay, and then all you need is to hook your two power lines up to your FI wiring harness and ECU per the diagram.
Since different years of engines had different setups, leave the wiring harness on the engine, and use a MAP sensor that matches your injection system.
Use the circuitry from J16, J17, and J21 here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/type3_8_70_additional.jpg
Note that if your engine has a cold start system (optional on 1968-9, standard on 1970-3) you'll need a starter with the extra spade terminal marked 30.
If the engine is an automatic 1970- 0n, your auxiliary air regulator is also electronically heated, and should have key power.
Hope this helps. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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balloonrich Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2009 Posts: 3 Location: tampa,fl
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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i need a little guidance. I've searched the forum and wiring diagrams but I seem to be missing a power feed somewhere.
1971 Square - auto trans and F.I. (obviously)
this is not my car, helping a friend. Car ran but starter went out - friend replaced starter, battery and installed alternator kit ( and to his credit, took a picture of the wiring at the starter before disassembly, and installed alternator and wiring correctly) but its crank/no start now.
when I turn the key on, I can hear the fuel pump prime for a sec. the power relay under back seat (left side) is working (actually supplies power, not just clicking, i checked) and fuel pump relay under the dash is working. Car has spark, will start on alternate fuel source. Injector contact points are working. (i have also jumped the contact point connector and heard the fuel pump kick back on, when I do that on my 69 Square the injectors also fire off, but not on this one)
The problem is no power to the inectors, not at key on, not during cranking, not with key on and jumping FI points connector like my 69 does. Comparing my 69 to this 71, i don't see anything obviously missing or disconnected
I'm sure something got disconnected that I'm missing but everything in the attached picture is perfect except where I circled. I'm not positive what those 3 wires are, and the only thing out of place are 3 wires in a harness near the battery. I asked him what these wires were and if they were hooked up and he can not remember. I would appreciate and help at all
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rosevillain Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005 Posts: 1290 Location: roseville, ca
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Those three wires look like the grounds. I think on a '71 they are all grounded at the breather. On the '69, there should be a ground on each side of the engine for the injectors, and one at the breather. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22425 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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rosevillain wrote: |
Those three wires look like the grounds. I think on a '71 they are all grounded at the breather. On the '69, there should be a ground on each side of the engine for the injectors, and one at the breather. |
Agreed. Injector grounds at the base of the breather.
I'd check the starter connections, as using the wrong starter will leave you without a power connection for/to the ECU. I only say that, as you mentioned the owner/friend replaced the starter. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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knewknew Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Alexandria, VA
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Hi all,
This weekend I adjusted my valve gaps, installed new points, and checked timing. All went well, and the engine runs and sounds great.
However, when I tried to check the vacuum advance, I could not notice any 'pull'. I used my finger and a thin piece of paper (in this case a Band-Aid wrapper) over the inlet. I tested every combination of testing either end and noticed no change. Also, the engine didn't seem to change when I removed the tube to run the test.
I suppose the answer will be: 'you have a leak in the intake manifold'. ...but all my hoses are new and fitting very snugly. I am stumped.
How do you perform this test? and what should a normal result be?
_________________ 1970 Squareback |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34013 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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IIRC, that port is metered (small precision hole) and so probably a piece of grit or sludge has clogged it. I'd try blowing it out with pressure after you open the throttle. |
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vwsquare2 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2016 Posts: 104 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Is there not any vacuum even when you open the throttle? At idle, when the throttle is closed, I don't think you will have vacuum. I believe at idle the butterfly is bypassed by the idle screw allowing just enough air into the intake manifold for combustion.
When you open the throttle, air passes through the butterfly. That air rushing by creates the vacuum which is used for the distributor's vacuum advance. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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vwsquare2 wrote: |
Is there not any vacuum even when you open the throttle? At idle, when the throttle is closed, I don't think you will have vacuum. I believe at idle the butterfly is bypassed by the idle screw allowing just enough air into the intake manifold for combustion.
When you open the throttle, air passes through the butterfly. That air rushing by creates the vacuum which is used for the distributor's vacuum advance. |
This.
There's no need for advance at idle. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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knewknew Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Alexandria, VA
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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vwsquare2 wrote: |
Is there not any vacuum even when you open the throttle? At idle, when the throttle is closed, I don't think you will have vacuum. I believe at idle the butterfly is bypassed by the idle screw allowing just enough air into the intake manifold for combustion.
When you open the throttle, air passes through the butterfly. That air rushing by creates the vacuum which is used for the distributor's vacuum advance. |
KTPhil wrote: |
IIRC, that port is metered (small precision hole) and so probably a piece of grit or sludge has clogged it. I'd try blowing it out with pressure after you open the throttle. |
Tram wrote: |
This.
There's no need for advance at idle. |
Just ran another test and I felt a little suction when giving it some throttle. ...phew, peace of mind restored! Thanks guys. _________________ 1970 Squareback |
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tmitoraj Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 177
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:43 pm Post subject: TVS help needed please |
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I have a 71 FI/AT Fasty that I am getting close to finishing up rehabbing. The question is about my TVS. It is number 311 906 111c. It has 4 prongs. My books say wires from ECU 17,20,14,9 go to it. My ECU is311906021d and it has no 14 wire from the ECU.
Do I have mismatched parts?
There is also no numbering on the TVS telling me which wire goes where.
Thanks for your help!
Tom |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17970 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: TVS help needed please |
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tmitoraj wrote: |
I have a 71 FI/AT Fasty that I am getting close to finishing up rehabbing. The question is about my TVS. It is number 311 906 111c. It has 4 prongs. My books say wires from ECU 17,20,14,9 go to it. My ECU is311906021d and it has no 14 wire from the ECU.
Do I have mismatched parts?
There is also no numbering on the TVS telling me which wire goes where.
Thanks for your help!
Tom |
Your TVS is a C but your ECU is a D.
That's a problem, as all your FI components are supposed to match. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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tmitoraj Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 177
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:32 am Post subject: TVS help needed |
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Thanks!
My car is a 71 FI/auto. Which letter TVS and ECU should I be running with. I can probably find what I need in the classifieds. I’m getting closer!! |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17970 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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'71 would use C components I believe.
My '69 FI/auto uses A or B.
I have some C stuff on my shelf. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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tmitoraj Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 177
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: TVS help needed |
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Ok, great. I will get a c unit and keep on trucking |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34013 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Your combo should work as-is.
The '71 uses the so-called "C" system but that doesn't mean every part number ends with "C".
Stick with the table, though. Mix and match will usually run very badly, if at all.
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tmitoraj Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 177
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:41 pm Post subject: TVS help needed |
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It looks like the D ECU should work. My car has 3/71 on the inside pillar. But what about the missing ECU wire number 14 that should go to the TVS? |
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