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53 0val
Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003
Posts: 11396
Location: Irvine, CA
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 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Pg 31 of the '52 owners manual shows the clip, and most pictures are taken of the prior year's car. 
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"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." Dobee, Dobee, Do |
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Ok till now you are wright!!
Wait for the answer of the expert JH!
 ET |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4216
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
The pictured intake could be corret if it is the 25 "701" intake (not the 701E which has 36 hp endcastings).
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The tubing that the manifold is made from is also larger diameter on the 36 hp manifolds.
The 36 hp is roughly 28mm id and the 25 hp is roughly 26mm id on the down tube under the carb flange. I'm not in front of any manifolds right now but the main tube is also bigger but I am not sure if it was the same size as the down tube.
Except as has been noted many times before the zwitter manifold that was a 25 hp motor with the 28mm carb like on the 36hp but without the takeoff for the vacuum advance (since those 25hp's still had the 383 distributor). It had the 26mm tubing but the tube was flared to 28mm under the carb mounting flange.
Chris |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9416
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
The pictured intake could be corret if it is the 25 "701" intake (not the 701E which has 36 hp endcastings).
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The tubing that the manifold is made from is also larger diameter on the 36 hp manifolds.
The 36 hp is roughly 28mm id and the 25 hp is roughly 26mm id on the down tube under the carb flange. I'm not in front of any manifolds right now but the main tube is also bigger but I am not sure if it was the same size as the down tube.
Except as has been noted many times before the zwitter manifold that was a 25 hp motor with the 28mm carb like on the 36hp but without the takeoff for the vacuum advance (since those 25hp's still had the 383 distributor). It had the 26mm tubing but the tube was flared to 28mm under the carb mounting flange.
Chris |
I beleive tha the carb riser tube is the same between the 25 and 36 hp manifolds. The ones meant for the 28mm carbs have a flare just below the carb flange but the tube diamter is the same. Also the main tube (intake runner) is the same size.
On that pictured intake (the "701") the heat riser tubing is a larger diameter (about 21mm) and is the same as the 36 hp however. Oddly, on the "Zwitter" intake that came after it (the one with the hard right angle right side heat riser tube) it is the smaller diameter (18mm) tubing like the K mainfolds.
I will confirm this tonight, I have those manifolds on my bench still. In fact with this recent acquisition, I think I have an original version of every manifold from '45 to '62. I will make up a new "Techwerks" opage at the Zarwerks site and compare all of them in every detail with pics.....
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9416
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Heb623 wrote: |
Ok till now you are wright!!
Wait for the answer of the expert JH!
ET |
I'm no expert. Never claimed to be.
I just know a lot about early VWs....... but not everything! 
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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O sorry I tought your were God of VW Splits in America!!!
I am wrong than, huh?
But my view over the oil filler tube is correct! I will proof it! But I have no acces to my cars now! Later on, so patience!!!
ET |
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Cable going from star coil to distributor doesn't he has to be green? 
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53 0val
Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003
Posts: 11396
Location: Irvine, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Heb623 wrote: |
Cable going from star coil to distributor doesn't he has to be green?
ET |
 Maybe on your car................black Bosch on mine.
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"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." Dobee, Dobee, Do |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9416
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 53 0val wrote: |
| Heb623 wrote: |
Cable going from star coil to distributor doesn't he has to be green?
ET |
Maybe on your car................black Bosch on mine. |
Black also on the 1950 wiring diagram and legend.
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Dave Haviland
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Joined: June 26, 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Burlington, Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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[
Not sure when the 2 piece cylinder head tin ended, but I am pretty sure it was before '51.
I pulled two piece tin of a Feb. '51 engine. Case and star coil ended up in Humberto's car. Had I known I'd end up with a '51 convertible, I'd still have it. 
Dave |
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Brad Lee
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2004
Posts: 39
Location: HB, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of good response here, thanks
I am guessing the ID is 1-0282275, which would make the month built February 1951. That is good news since the car was built in February as well!
Since its an early 51 sounds like I need a K-Manifold, round carb support and possibly a pulley.........Not as bad as it could be  |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4216
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
The pictured intake could be corret if it is the 25 "701" intake (not the 701E which has 36 hp endcastings).
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The tubing that the manifold is made from is also larger diameter on the 36 hp manifolds.
The 36 hp is roughly 28mm id and the 25 hp is roughly 26mm id on the down tube under the carb flange. I'm not in front of any manifolds right now but the main tube is also bigger but I am not sure if it was the same size as the down tube.
Except as has been noted many times before the zwitter manifold that was a 25 hp motor with the 28mm carb like on the 36hp but without the takeoff for the vacuum advance (since those 25hp's still had the 383 distributor). It had the 26mm tubing but the tube was flared to 28mm under the carb mounting flange.
Chris |
I beleive tha the carb riser tube is the same between the 25 and 36 hp manifolds. The ones meant for the 28mm carbs have a flare just below the carb flange but the tube diamter is the same. Also the main tube (intake runner) is the same size.
On that pictured intake (the "701") the heat riser tubing is a larger diameter (about 21mm) and is the same as the 36 hp however. Oddly, on the "Zwitter" intake that came after it (the one with the hard right angle right side heat riser tube) it is the smaller diameter (18mm) tubing like the K mainfolds.
I will confirm this tonight, I have those manifolds on my bench still. In fact with this recent acquisition, I think I have an original version of every manifold from '45 to '62. I will make up a new "Techwerks" opage at the Zarwerks site and compare all of them in every detail with pics..... |
I stand partially corrected. The main tube is indeed the same size but it flares out at the ends once they enter the end castings so you end up with a larger ID where it meets the head.
It is hard to find a spot on the down tube that is not distorted from being bent but it is clearly smaller than a 36 hp manifold. About a millimeter or two which was my earlier assertion. That is the reason for the flare at the top, so they could use the larger 28 mm flange.
You are also correct on the 6mm weld nuts being used on the sparkplug tube brackets. Mine has the familiar cheese head screws but they might have been bolts originally.
The later ones just use a sheet metal screw.
Chris |
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EverettB 
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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OK forget that cable!! Black it is!!
But also forget that hold down clip on your oil filler tube!!
Its not original on a 1951 25HP engine!!
On the other hand it was there on a 1952 25HP engine!!
ET |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4216
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Heb623 wrote: |
OK forget that cable!! Black it is!!
But also forget that hold down clip on your oil filler tube!!
Its not original on a 1951 25HP engine!!
On the other hand it was there on a 1952 25HP engine!!
ET |
My October 51 engine has the hold down clip.
from progressive refinements Aug 51 chassis no. 1-0272706 Oil Breather Now: Filler cap with clamp spring.
Chris
Last edited by splitjunkie on Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9416
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
The pictured intake could be corret if it is the 25 "701" intake (not the 701E which has 36 hp endcastings).
|
The tubing that the manifold is made from is also larger diameter on the 36 hp manifolds.
The 36 hp is roughly 28mm id and the 25 hp is roughly 26mm id on the down tube under the carb flange. I'm not in front of any manifolds right now but the main tube is also bigger but I am not sure if it was the same size as the down tube.
Except as has been noted many times before the zwitter manifold that was a 25 hp motor with the 28mm carb like on the 36hp but without the takeoff for the vacuum advance (since those 25hp's still had the 383 distributor). It had the 26mm tubing but the tube was flared to 28mm under the carb mounting flange.
Chris |
I beleive tha the carb riser tube is the same between the 25 and 36 hp manifolds. The ones meant for the 28mm carbs have a flare just below the carb flange but the tube diamter is the same. Also the main tube (intake runner) is the same size.
On that pictured intake (the "701") the heat riser tubing is a larger diameter (about 21mm) and is the same as the 36 hp however. Oddly, on the "Zwitter" intake that came after it (the one with the hard right angle right side heat riser tube) it is the smaller diameter (18mm) tubing like the K mainfolds.
I will confirm this tonight, I have those manifolds on my bench still. In fact with this recent acquisition, I think I have an original version of every manifold from '45 to '62. I will make up a new "Techwerks" opage at the Zarwerks site and compare all of them in every detail with pics..... |
I stand partially corrected. The main tube is indeed the same size but it flares out at the ends once they enter the end castings so you end up with a larger ID where it meets the head.
It is hard to find a spot on the down tube that is not distorted from being bent but it is clearly smaller than a 36 hp manifold. About a millimeter or two which was my earlier assertion. That is the reason for the flare at the top, so they could use the larger 28 mm flange.
You are also correct on the 6mm weld nuts being used on the sparkplug tube brackets. Mine has the familiar cheese head screws but they might have been bolts originally.
The later ones just use a sheet metal screw.
Chris |
Here's 5 intakes used on 25 and 36hp engines. Left side, forground to back are
The unjacketed K (to March '50)
Jacketed K (March 50 through ???)
The "zwitter" intake
On the right forground is:
The "701" 25 hp intake
The "701E" 36 hp intake (donated a HR leg to science)
ALL of these are original intakes, the two K manifolds have Cogwheel logos. All of them have vertical carb riser tubes at 27mm +/- 0.1mm (measured with a digital micrometer), measured at the same location, longitudinally about 1" above the intake runner union.
The K manifolds have no flare below the carb flange and a 26mm ID flange opening. The others have flared carb risers and 28mm ID flange openings.
The K manifolds have endcastings brazed on, all of the others are pressed on. There is no flare of the intake runner where it meets the endcasting on any of these intakes.
All of them on the left have thin walled 18mm OD heat riser tubes, the two on the right have 20 mm thick walled heat riser tubes.
All but the 36hp "701E" intake have endcasting faces dimensioned for 25 hp heads.
A few more pics:
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4216
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
The K manifolds have endcastings brazed on, all of the others are pressed on. There is no flare of the intake runner where it meets the endcasting on any of these intakes.
All but the 36hp "701E" intake have endcasting faces dimensioned for 25 hp heads.
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If you read what I said, the flare is inside the casting. If you stick you finger in a head end hole on 36 hp manifold you will feel the flare. I measured that with my analog finger. The size of the hole is bigger on the 36 hp because the end casting is bigger. They pressed the casting on then then expanded the tubing inside the casting, probably to provide a better mechanical connection between the tube and the casting then machined the end. Either that or they were just cheap and did not want to use bigger tubing so they just flared it to match the larger hole on the 36hp head.
The 25 hp has a smaller opening because the end casting is smaller. There is no flair inside a head end hole on a 25 hp manifold.
Chris |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9416
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wrong again.
There is no flare of the intake runner tube inside the endcasting on the 36 intake. The tube end is chamfer cut (inside bevel) just short of the end casting face. This creates a smooth change in diameter but the outside diameter of the intake tubing is the same all the way through end casting, for 25 and 36hp intakes. The "flare" you are feelign with your calibrated analog finger (CAF) is the chamfer cut of the tubing end.
In the pic below you can see a 36 and 25 hp (late 25 hp) endcasting from the bottom. The intake tubing actually does not touch the head when installed, the endcasting face mates with the crush gasket. I copied the pictures and showed where the chamfer ends on both with a red line.
The endcasting is pressed on with an interfence fit that is well above the head face, in the upper part of the endcasting. Just as the 25hp endcastings need no flare to hold on to the tubing, neither do the 36 ones. The chamfer cut is to allow a smooth flow of gases from the smaller diameter tubing to the larger opening in the head.
In the very early K manifolds, the tubing does go all the way to the endcasting face:
Note that the 25 intake on the right has a cogwheel logo.
If you really want to hold on to your assertion, I'll hammer a 36 hp endcasting off and post a pic of the inside bore which is a uniform 20 mm end to end....
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I keep saying that my march 1951 split window like all other early 51 or late 50 splits had no hold on clip!!!
Oil filling tube on top flat!!
Late 51 and early 52 had a dimple on top of oil filling tube!!!
ET |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4216
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
Wrong again.
There is no flare of the intake runner tube inside the endcasting on the 36 intake. The tube end is chamfer cut (inside bevel) |
John, I suspect that the only one who gives a crap about this at this point is you. Bevel, flare, whatever. It is still tapered. You can split hairs all you want to try to maintain your position as the early vw manifold expert of the world. I'm sure you were up late taking pictures just so could sleep because you could not take the fact that you might be wrong.
I don't really care.
Rareair and oval53 make assertions all the time and sometimes they are wrong and I never see them go the the great lengths that you go to beat their position to death to try to prove that they are right or get all defensive.
If I make an assertion that proves to be wrong , I look at it and say "wow, I learned something" Unlike you, I don't think I know everything. I don't see this as a contest. Of course when somone approches the debate t the way you do, it just turns me and others off. Every discussion group has at least one, and you my friend are it.
Chris |
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