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wolfsburgvw
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Joined: February 02, 2004
Posts: 342
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 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: jacketed K manifold question |
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| i need to know what you guys think,my 51 is an unrestored car,when i got the car it had been of the road since 1969,i stripped the engine to resael it,and found the manifold was leaking between the tubes,the manifold was a 701e i think,i need to know if this would have been fitted from new or would it have had a jacketed K,as i want to ket one of the jacketedK manifolds if it should have one,my car is a 1951 delux,thanks steve. |
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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The 701E manifold would not have been installed in '51. That is the fairly common 36 hp intake. And its endcastings need to be milled to fit a 25hp engine however.
A '51 would have most likely have had a jacketed K manifold. The jacketed K started in March '50, but its end date is unclear. I am of the opinion that the switchover would have been late '51 or early '52.
Progressive Refinements makes no mention of intake changes between March '50 and Sept '52.
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billmetric
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I had a July '52 split with the original engine that still had the jacketed K on it, this car was late enough to not have the rear access panel above the transmission behind the back seat but it still had the Jacketed K manifold on it, hope that helps to date the change
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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The 701e is a 36hp manifold.
The problem is that the vw book, progressive refinement sis very vague in it's descriptions of the different styles of manifolds and the times that they say they were changed don't seem to always coincide with what people have observed on actual cars.
The jacketed K was introduced in Apr. 50 at chassis #1-0-156970 "Now:light metal jacket for intensified preheating of mixture."
At chassis no. 1-0397023 (oct.52) which is when they introduced the oval dash split (zwitter), it says they changed the carburetor to the 28PCI which we know is true. We also know they changed the manifold at the same time but it just says "Now: with preheating tube in joint aluminum-cast jacket."
What the heck does that mean? They already had a jacket on them or did they change from some other light alloy to aluminum. Is that the "Zwitter manifold" or is it something else because there is a 25 hp manifold that looks like the 36hp manifold. it has the same shape of the preheater tube but has the 25 hp end castings. Some feel that this came between the jacketed K and the Zwitter manifold but there is no other change mentioned for the type 1 that coincides with such a change.
There is a mention for the type 2 at chassis #20-041712 that states "Now: longer shaping of exhast pie to cylinder 3/4. Longer jacket casting" That does not sound like the zwitter manifold because the longer leg of the pipe on the zwitter manifold is on the 1/2 side. This happens to be when they changed the carburetor to the 28pci for the type 2. Is this the elusive 25/36 hybrid?
I personally think that the jacketed K was replaced by the zwitter manifold when the introduced the oval dash split. See Bill's example above. I have seen plenty of 52's with them as well. I think that the 25hp manifold that looks like the 36hp manifold is just a later replacement manifold that they produced later in the 50's or 60's when they had exhaused the supply of jacketed Ks and zwitter manifolds. My VW parts manual from the 70's lists the 701 as being for the 25 hp and the 701E as for the 36hp. There are no other versions mentioned for this era.
Why would VW keep making the jacked Ks and zwitter manifolds when they has already determined that they were of inferior design. They would just keep having to replace them because they would just keep rotting out. They would have either scrapped what they had (which is unlikely for VW) or used up their current supply and then made a manifold of the current 36hp proven design with the correct 25hp end castings.
The preheat tubes were very thin on those early manifolds that they rotted out quickly and needed to be replaced well before the car reached any reasonable service life in most cases.
My late 51 has the zwitter manifold on it. We know that it would have originally came with the jacketed K, or at least not a zwitter manifold. But it was replaced at some point early because my car was parked in 1962 and not driven since. My guess is that it was replaced during the time that the zwitter manifolds were still available.
Lot's of splits have the 301E's on them so maybe the dealers did not stock the modifed 25hp manifolds because they did not want to stock an extra part. I have seen somewere in a vw book that VW offered an adapter seal that was tapered to correct for the mismatch between the later 36hp and the smaller 25hp intake openings. Maybe most dealers opted to stock the much cheaper adapter seals rather than the more expensive manifolds.
The only Jacked K "reproductions that I am aware of are from Kaffer Nostalgeie. I don't know anything about the quality or if they are just a modifed 36 hp manifold or what. There are also repaired jacketed Ks with replacement tubes epoxied in place. I don't think I would want that on my car, but maybe that's just me.
I am no expert but that is my take on it.
Chris |
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johnshenry
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| billmetric wrote: |
| I had a July '52 split with the original engine that still had the jacketed K on it, this car was late enough to not have the rear access panel above the transmission behind the back seat but it still had the Jacketed K manifold on it, hope that helps to date the change |
Sure does, thanks!
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Richard Roth
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Joined: April 03, 2004
Posts: 952
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: jacketed K manifold question |
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| wolfsburgvw wrote: |
| i need to know what you guys think,my 51 is an unrestored car,when i got the car it had been of the road since 1969,i stripped the engine to resael it,and found the manifold was leaking between the tubes,the manifold was a 701e i think,i need to know if this would have been fitted from new or would it have had a jacketed K,as i want to ket one of the jacketedK manifolds if it should have one,my car is a 1951 delux,thanks steve. |
It sounds as if your car may have a 36hp motor in it.
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1966 Empi GTV MKIV
1954 Kabriolett Beetle
1953 Porsche 356 1500S
1957 Cable brake standard model
1962 cable brake standard model
1956 23 window Samba
1960 Austin Healey 3000
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What-a-Mess
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Location: East Yorkshire, England
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry guys, there are so many manifold related threads at the moment I didn't know where to put this.
The picture shows the centre castings on what I thought were two 701E manifolds, however measuring the intake end castings shows that the 'black' manifold at the top of the picture is a 25hp manifold as it has 29mm outside diameter not 32mm.
It looks like someone has tried to remove the 'E' from the part number with a few hammer blows. I was just wondering whether other 701 25hp manifolds also seem to use the centre casting of the 701 E with the part number modified.
Jon.
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johnshenry
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
The 701E manifold would not have been installed in '51. That is the fairly common 36 hp intake. And its endcastings need to be milled to fit a 25hp engine however.
A '51 would have most likely have had a jacketed K manifold. The jacketed K started in March '50, but its end date is unclear. I am of the opinion that the switchover would have been late '51 or early '52.
Progressive Refinements makes no mention of intake changes between March '50 and Sept '52. |
Chris is right, its Apr '50 not Mar....
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
I personally think that the jacketed K was replaced by the zwitter manifold when the introduced the oval dash split. See Bill's example above. I have seen plenty of 52's with them as well. I think that the 25hp manifold that looks like the 36hp manifold is just a later replacement manifold that they produced later in the 50's or 60's when they had exhaused the supply of jacketed Ks and zwitter manifolds. My VW parts manual from the 70's lists the 701 as being for the 25 hp and the 701E as for the 36hp. There are no other versions mentioned for this era.
Chris |
That is very possible. Given the inherent safetly issue with the jacketed K (heat riser tubes coming loose from the jacket and allowig exhaust gases to escape in the upper engine bay and then get drawn into the cabin via the heating system) as well as the too-thin HR tubing used on all K manifolds, I can see where VW might have had a "replace on next failure" policy for them.
I don't think that the later 36hp style, 25 hp intake was produced after the "701E" 36hp one though, as it has no suffix number. It was the original "701" design intake.
Of other note on this topic: The earliest jacket Ks used 2 separate heat riser legs, whereas the later ones it was one piece. This was probably done to address the HR legs coming loos in the jacket... when the bigger probelm was probably the wall thickness (or lach thereof).
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| What-a-Mess wrote: |
Sorry guys, there are so many manifold related threads at the moment I didn't know where to put this.
The picture shows the centre castings on what I thought were two 701E manifolds, however measuring the intake end castings shows that the 'black' manifold at the top of the picture is a 25hp manifold as it has 29mm outside diameter not 32mm.
It looks like someone has tried to remove the 'E' from the part number with a few hammer blows. I was just wondering whether other 701 25hp manifolds also seem to use the centre casting of the 701 E with the part number modified.
Jon. |
That goes along with my theory. They would not have made a new pattern for casting the small number of 36hp style replacement manifolds if that is indeed what they are. They would have modified the existing casting by removing the E. Although I would think they would do a better job than that. The only thing different is end castings so they would just take some partially finished 36 manifolds, remove the E and put the 25 hp ends on and finish machining them. At least that is my take.
Chris |
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wolfsburgvw
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| no ive got the original paperwork and vw berth certificate which reveals original and matching nummber engine,the car is a one owner 40,000klms from new so just wondered weather the manifold had been changed at some point,steve. |
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johnshenry
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| What-a-Mess wrote: |
Sorry guys, there are so many manifold related threads at the moment I didn't know where to put this.
The picture shows the centre castings on what I thought were two 701E manifolds, however measuring the intake end castings shows that the 'black' manifold at the top of the picture is a 25hp manifold as it has 29mm outside diameter not 32mm.
It looks like someone has tried to remove the 'E' from the part number with a few hammer blows. I was just wondering whether other 701 25hp manifolds also seem to use the centre casting of the 701 E with the part number modified.
Jon. |
Jon, when you say that the endcasting has an OD of 29 mm are you talking about the round mating face, or the overall width? Is the overall width (the widest part of the endcasting, well above the mating face) the same on both? A true 25 hp endcasting should have a 29mm face and a 31mm overall width. A 36 hp one should be 32 and about 33+mm.
Below are pics of the "701" intake I have, it has true 25hp endcastings. I looks kind of like an "E" may have been rubbed out, but I don't think so. Notice how compared to a 36hp 701E that the part numer and logo are in different places. Not the same as yours.
Also, there is another version of the 701E where the lettering is about twice as big as these.
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
I don't think that the later 36hp style, 25 hp intake was produced after the "701E" 36hp one though, as it has no suffix number. It was the original "701" design intake.
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That is a possibility, but I think that indicates that it came out after the zwitter manifold, not before. My zwitter manifold has a vw emblem followed by an 08 02 so what was the part number for that particular manifold? I am assuming it was xxxxx0802. I would not think that it is a date code since it is not stamped.
I think that the 701 and 701E were introduced at the same time or soon before the existing supply of the old 25hps were used up. VW realized that they had finally solved the problem of the heat riser tubes rotting out. That was a real Einstein, just make the tubing thicker. So when they introduced the 701 E for the 36hp (what happened to A through D?) and they used the base number to indicate the lowest revision of motor that it would fit, the 25 hp. Since everything on the manifold is the same except the end castings, it was just the cheapest way to produce a replacement manifold. Remember, VW was very focused on quality but equally focused on inexpensive. Like I said earlier, my 70's vw parts manual lists the 701 as the 25hp manifold and the 701E as the 36hp. The 701 was the final and ultimate version of the 25hp manifold. The 701 indicates the style of manifold. The suffixes indicate the different variations of the manifold.
I base this alot on the fact that Progessive refinements does not mention this manifold at all. They were pretty good at documenting these things.
That is what I think anyway.
Chris |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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The vw emblem on yours looks much later than the ones on whatamess and my 36 hp manifolds look like. The early ones had the circle with a v and w that do not touch each other or the circle. Yours clearly touch the circle. Plus they have that distinctive 60's grey paint. I think yours is a later manifold made it the 60's. Remember, the 701 was still in the parts book in the 70's.
Chris |
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
I don't think that the later 36hp style, 25 hp intake was produced after the "701E" 36hp one though, as it has no suffix number. It was the original "701" design intake.
|
That is a possibility, but I think that indicates that it came out after the zwitter manifold, not before. My zwitter manifold has a vw emblem followed by an 08 02 so what was the part number for that particular manifold? I am assuming it was xxxxx0802. I would not think that it is a date code since it is not stamped.
I think that the 701 and 701E were introduced at the same time or soon before the existing supply of the old 25hps were used up. VW realized that they had finally solved the problem of the heat riser tubes rotting out. That was a real Einstein, just make the tubing thicker. So when they introduced the 701 E for the 36hp (what happened to A through D?) and they used the base number to indicate the lowest revision of motor that it would fit, the 25 hp. Since everything on the manifold is the same except the end castings, it was just the cheapest way to produce a replacement manifold. Remember, VW was very focused on quality but equally focused on inexpensive. Like I said earlier, my 70's vw parts manual lists the 701 as the 25hp manifold and the 701E as the 36hp. The 701 was the final and ultimate version of the 25hp manifold. The 701 indicates the style of manifold. The suffixes indicate the different variations of the manifold.
I base this alot on the fact that Progessive refinements does not mention this manifold at all. They were pretty good at documenting these things.
That is what I think anyway.
Chris |
That all sounds plausible. Also, since the zwitter intake was the last intake to use the very tin heat riser tubing, the "701" probably did come after it. I can't imagine that once the bulb went off and they figured out the solution was thicker tubing, that they would ever go back to the thin stuff.
So one theory is:
K mainfolds....... Mar '50
Jacketed K..........Mar '50 to Zwitter (Oct '52, PR confirms)
Zwitter Intake......Zwitter and through June '53 to first 28MM carb?
701E/701.............701E for 36 hp applications, 701 for all 25hp replacements
Interesting, my "zwitter" intake has 28mm carb flange and 36 endcastings. ????
I think Bob has an original one with 25hp endcastings.
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
That all sounds plausible. Also, since the zwitter intake was the last intake to use the very tin heat riser tubing, the "701" probably did come after it. I can't imagine that once the bulb went off and they figured out the solution was thicker tubing, that they would ever go back to the thin stuff.
So one theory is:
K mainfolds....... Mar '50
Jacketed K..........Mar '50 to Zwitter (Oct '52, PR confirms)
Zwitter Intake......Zwitter and through June '53 to first 28MM carb?
701E/701.............701E for 36 hp applications, 701 for all 25hp replacements
Interesting, my "zwitter" intake has 28mm carb flange and 36 endcastings. ????
I think Bob has an original one with 25hp endcastings. |
Close. The zwitter had a 28mm carb, it just did not have a vaccuum fitting for the distributor since they still were using the 383 distributor. That is why the 28mm flange. My zwitter manifold has 28mm carb with 25hp end castings.
I think your zwitter manifold came off an industrial motor because I have seen at least two 36hp motors on the samba that have a zwitter like manifold on them which by the way were still using the 26vfis carbs. I would not put it past VW to change the ends to use up stock on industrial engines. They would just hate to throw things away, especially at that point in the company's history. No heat on an industrial motor so no worries about killing aunt Bessy on the way to church.
K mainfolds....... ended Mar '50
Jacketed K..........Apr '50 to Zwitter (Oct '52, PR confirms)
Zwitter Intake......Zwitter and through Dec '53 all with 28MM carb (PR confirms)
701E/701.............Dec 53 with the introcution of the 36hp (PR confirms) 701E for 36 hp applications, 701 for all 25hp replacements.
Chris |
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johnshenry
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
That all sounds plausible. Also, since the zwitter intake was the last intake to use the very tin heat riser tubing, the "701" probably did come after it. I can't imagine that once the bulb went off and they figured out the solution was thicker tubing, that they would ever go back to the thin stuff.
So one theory is:
K mainfolds....... Mar '50
Jacketed K..........Mar '50 to Zwitter (Oct '52, PR confirms)
Zwitter Intake......Zwitter and through June '53 to first 28MM carb?
701E/701.............701E for 36 hp applications, 701 for all 25hp replacements
Interesting, my "zwitter" intake has 28mm carb flange and 36 endcastings. ????
I think Bob has an original one with 25hp endcastings. |
Close. The zwitter had a 28mm carb, it just did not have a vaccuum fitting for the distributor since they still were using the 383 distributor. That is why the 28mm flange. My zwitter manifold has 28mm carb with 25hp end castings.
I think your zwitter manifold came off an industrial motor because I have seen at least two 36hp motors on the samba that have a zwitter like manifold on them which by the way were still using the 26vfis carbs. I would not put it past VW to change the ends to use up stock on industrial engines. They would just hate to throw things away, especially at that point in the company's history. No heat on an industrial motor so no worries about killing aunt Bessy on the way to church.
K mainfolds....... ended Mar '50
Jacketed K..........Apr '50 to Zwitter (Oct '52, PR confirms)
Zwitter Intake......Zwitter and through Dec '53 all with 28MM carb (PR confirms)
701E/701.............Dec 53 with the introcution of the 36hp (PR confirms) 701E for 36 hp applications, 701 for all 25hp replacements.
Chris |
Someone else had said my intake might be for an ind. engine. Very possible.
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What-a-Mess
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| Jon, when you say that the endcasting has an OD of 29 mm are you talking about the round mating face, or the overall width? Is the overall width (the widest part of the endcasting, well above the mating face) the same on both? A true 25 hp endcasting should have a 29mm face and a 31mm overall width. A 36 hp one should be 32 and about 33+mm. |
I'll check all the dimensions tonight, but the 29mm diameter is just the round mating face. I think the rest of your dimensions are probably about the same as what I've got, as I don't remember a noticable change in width between the mating surface and the rest of the casting.
Jon
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
.....I think that the 701 and 701E were introduced at the same time or soon before the existing supply of the old 25hps were used up. VW realized that they had finally solved the problem of the heat riser tubes rotting out. That was a real Einstein, just make the tubing thicker. So when they introduced the 701 E for the 36hp (what happened to A through D?) and they used the base number to indicate the lowest revision of motor that it would fit, the 25 hp. ...... |
Well if in '54 VW had sorted out the design problems, and also had just gone to the 3x3x3 part numbers (and a bunch of German engineers all excited about it), then maybe they retroactively applied the suffix scheme to all of the previous 25hp intakes, just for the sake of recordkeeping, consitency, etc.
701A - Unjacketed K
701B - Jacketed K
701C - Zwitter intake
701D - Who knows???
701E - 36hp
You can kind of see that make sense, and then the "701" is not given a suffix as it is a replacement for A-C (D?).
Just a theory. I'm sure there is a piece of paper somewhere in the world that explains all this. And also why cats always land on their feet.....
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What-a-Mess
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| What-a-Mess wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| Jon, when you say that the endcasting has an OD of 29 mm are you talking about the round mating face, or the overall width? Is the overall width (the widest part of the endcasting, well above the mating face) the same on both? A true 25 hp endcasting should have a 29mm face and a 31mm overall width. A 36 hp one should be 32 and about 33+mm. |
I'll check all the dimensions tonight, but the 29mm diameter is just the round mating face. I think the rest of your dimensions are probably about the same as what I've got, as I don't remember a noticable change in width between the mating surface and the rest of the casting.
Jon |
I've just checked and as you suggested the 25hp ends have 29mm mating faces, overall casting width 30.5mm, 30(36)hp ends are 31.5mm and 33mm.
Both manifolds have 28mm i.d. carb flanges (measured just below the initial chamfer).
I also have a zwitter manifold which does have 25hp end castings, with dims similar to above - couldn't check the carb flange as its got a carb on it and its too cold, wet, windy and dark to start taking my engine apart 
John - I'm looking forward to your manifold page on Zarwerks, it will take a fair bit of explaining to sort out all these slightly different manifolds.
Jon.
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