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Turbo/EFI on a budget **NOVEMBER UPDATE!!!!**
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Turbo/EFI on a budget **NOVEMBER UPDATE!!!!** Reply with quote

I've gotten a few PM's now about the engine I intend to run in my 58 Beetle, so I figured I'd better spill the
beans before my fingers get tired of typing. Very Happy
Basically, people want to know how to get a Turbo/EFI system into their vehicle for a low price, which is also what I wanted to do. There are many different ways to skin the proverbial cat, mine is just one way to do it, so take from this what you can.
O.K., so you are thinking about going Turbo/EFI, but don't know where to start? Well, I'm posting this in the hopes that more people will realize that it's not as hard as it seems, that there are alternatives to carburators, and also that it's not that expensive either.


In my case, high fun-to-dollar ratio was a prime concern, therefore I started shopping for a budget EFI system, and got a rude awakening. Turns out most of the systems out there are more than $900 out the door (my entire budget!); that is until my brother told me about Megasquirt. Long story short, I ended up with the version 2.2 ECU from the MS website in kit form for somewhere around $175.
That includes the parts kit, and the stim board to test it, once assembled. I also aquired various support electronics that I felt were going to be useful down the road, and ended up getting a laptop for tuning, an Apex digital boost controller, and a HKS turbo timer all for $200 from some ricer that maxed out his credit cards ricing out his Evo. Twisted Evil He had to sell me his stuff to pay his credit card debt. Anyway, I assembled the ECU, cleaned the porn and viruses off the laptop, and reloaded the software, and there's the EFI electronics for $375. Other small things will still be needed, like a pump, regulator, injectors, throttle body, and the lines, but all that stuff can be had for less than $50 at the junkyard. Now I'm at $425.
Also, I ended up buying a Techedge wideband oxygen sensor. Not a required item, but very useful, and it's been paying for itself anyway due to being rented out to my friends on occasion.
Next, I got a turbo header from CB Perf ($280), dual port end castings for EFI with fuel rails ($181), and a couple turbo's and intercoolers from the junkyards (in all about $100).
That brings the running total to $986, so I'm a little over budget, but not by much. Assuming you already have a running engine that is suitable for this kind of conversion, I'm positive anyone can build an EFI system like this even for less than I have. There are cheaper alteratives to some of the parts, like using VW FI end castings (FI Beetle), and welding your own header. Very Happy
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Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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Last edited by miniman82 on Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:18 pm; edited 12 times in total
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shown below are the Techedge wideband at left, the laptop, and the MS brain at right.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Next, a mockup of the engine. I decided to run the TB and turbo stuff behind the shroud, so I can close the decklid, and also so nobody can see what I have under there even if they looked. Twisted Evil
The header and turbo will be hidden behind the firewall, the only visable parts will be the injectors and intakes.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Behind the engine. The intercooler will be mounted somewhere above the passenger axle tube, with ducting to direct air thru it. Same goes for the oil cooler, but on the other side.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The turbo housing was clocked to point down into the intercooler, but it may change later due to unseen design changes. I may have to mount the intercooler horizontally for clearance, for example.
Also, as you can see in the photo, the rear exhaust tubes will need to be modified to go under the engine. The mid engine header was designed for buggies, but can easily be modified to work in a Beetle with some cutting and welding.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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Mr. Loaf
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:33 am    Post subject: Turbo Reply with quote

Looks like you are going in the right direction! I might be a little concerned though where your turbo is. Don't know what you are using this engine for, drags(?), but I would think that the excess heat from the turbo and exhaust is going to be used by your cooling fan and will cause your motor to run a lot hotter than if the turbo was mounted some where else.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scweet build mate. keep us imformed.

what is this beast going in?
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Kalen1970
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Turbo Reply with quote

MikeyStuff wrote:
Looks like you are going in the right direction! I might be a little concerned though where your turbo is. Don't know what you are using this engine for, drags(?), but I would think that the excess heat from the turbo and exhaust is going to be used by your cooling fan and will cause your motor to run a lot hotter than if the turbo was mounted some where else.



Same thoughts here. your pre\heating the air you are blowing over your cylinders. Sucking it over a really hot turbo.
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Turbo Reply with quote

Kalen1970 wrote:
Same thoughts here. your pre\heating the air you are blowing over your cylinders. Sucking it over a really hot turbo.


The turbo system will be seperated from the engine by the firewall, it's compartmentalized. There will only be a hole big enough for the charge tube to fit through, and I'll seal that off with a grommit or something. The engine will draw cooling air in the normal way, from the vents above the lid. If it ends up getting hot, I'll run standoffs.
This will be my daily driver, BTW. Twisted Evil
I'm betting there will be a good amount or heat shielding required to help guard against heat soak, we'll see what happens. The oil cooler has a dedicated fan, but at the moment, the intercooler does not.
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Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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shegel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just wondering, is this the kit that you got?

MS122-K_BL
or
MS122-K

from this site

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-kits-c-27.html
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the MS122-K kit, the _BL one has a black case.
Looks like prices have gone down quite a bit since I bought mine. Wink
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Glenn wrote:
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I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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Urnge74
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what type of throttle bodies/injectors are you using?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using CB Performance dual port end castings that have injector bosses in them, they will be plumbed to a single throtle body. I have Ford 2.3T 370cc/min low Z injectors, but depending on how far I decide to take it, I may need bigger. Laughing
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I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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turboedbug
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of fuel pump and regulator you planning on running?
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure on the pump yet, but I'm confident the Ford Econoline pump recommended by the MS guys will be enough. If it doesn't have enough volume, I'll have to step up to something like an Aeromotive.
As for the regulator, I got one from CB when I bought the header. It's a Malpassi boost referenced reg, but I'm unsure about the ratio. CB's info sheets don't say if they are rising rate or not, but it should work fine.
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I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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turboedbug
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awsome, keep us posted. I am currently building something simular
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmm... sure it will sucked hot air by any means
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
As for the regulator, I got one from CB when I bought the header. It's a Malpassi boost referenced reg, but I'm unsure about the ratio. CB's info sheets don't say if they are rising rate or not, but it should work fine.


Why would you use a boost referenced regulator? with EFI? carbs yes. but the boost pressure would not affect the injectors right? asking because I dont know.
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Rude-e
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rissing rate regulators are used on FI engines also - as a cheap alternative for fuel management(boost increases, so does fuel). With programable EFI it is not a necessity because you can adjust Fuel injector pulse width and other parameters.
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might appear on the surface that a regulator is not necessary with FI, because as was said, you can just add more fuel. In reality, this is not the case. Even factory FI systems are referanced to vacuum, the reason is it increases the resolution of the injectors.
Without the reg referanced to vac/boost, you would hit 100 percent duty cycle quickly, because the only way to add more fuel, would be to increase pulsewidth. You could compensate with bigger injectors, but at some point, the injectors would get so big you would be unable to control them at idle, leading to poor running (you can only shorten the pulewidth to a point). On the flip side, if you had injectors that ran well at idle, it is entirely possible that without being boost referanced you could end up with the injectors being always on!
Either way, the reg makes the injectors easier to control because now you have more than one way to increase the fuel flow through the injectors, it's just that you don't see what the regulator does on your laptop.
Without one, your fuel map would be pretty wild, I bet.

You need a boost reg on blow-through carb because without it, the boost pressure would force the fuel entering the float bowl back to where it came from, and the engine would starve.
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I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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66 Käfer
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like where you are going with this, Megasquirt would be my choice also to do an EFI set-up but why did you go with the mid-engine header? If it is for a daily driver why didn't you go with the hide-away header? They are only $245 and a lot less modifiyng to make it work.
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Just wondering, that's all. Over all it is pretty much the same direction I would take, using a single throttle body simplifies things a bit.
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went mid-engine header because I didn't want anyone to see what I had, and the hideaway one didn't really appeal to me because it's a little too cluttered. Don't get me wrong, it works good for a lot of people, it's just that I wanted a clean looking engine bay. The only way I could do that, was by swapping the end castings around, and running the entire system behind the firewall with the mid-engine header.
The only thing visible in my engine bay will be the engine.
I don't mind cutting the package tray, it's my POS car, it'll probably end up primer grey. Rolling Eyes
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I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


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66 Käfer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's cool, I see what you mean, but you have to admit that it is a lot better then the blow-through set-up...
Keep the picture coming, I'd like to see how it comes out.
I can see it...
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