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VW Fact #131 - 1500 Cabriolet
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Chory
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: fresh air vents in the rear quarter panels Reply with quote

Joerg Fischer wrote:
...actually had fresh air vents in the rear quarter panels?


For what purpose? Were they hard to cool? Was it just experimental?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Guten Tag... Reply with quote

Joerg Fischer wrote:
The third one I know has been wrecked in the early 70ies. I am in contact with 2 of the former owners and have 2 pictures of it. This one is (was) a prototype with a two digit VIN.


I have to quote myself to make an update of what I said almost a year ago. Today a friend told me about a picture here in the gallery of The Samba:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You see the famous bicycle racer Eddie Merckx, and in the background is the "third" T351 (Notchback Cabriolet) I was talking of. The picture is from 1966, so the person who posted the picture in his gallery: kgstef.

This is the first time I see a picture of it when it was still white (later it was green). I do not know it 100%, but I am pretty sure that the car on the picture is the same I know about, since the white one in the picture is licensed to Cologne (Germany), an the one I know from was also from Cologne.

If anybody gets or has more pictures - please share them, this is exciting!

Regards Jörg
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Guten Tag... Reply with quote

Joerg Fischer wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Is this the same Notch? The plates #'s are not the same and besides the foglights too.
I noticed this Notch has side moldings, whats up with that anybody know why. Confused just wondering.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

somebody posted that a few weeks back,it's suppose to be in the basement of the Karmann Museum.it keeps popping up in my dreams at night and I find myself waking up in a pool of drool Drool Very Happy
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Joerg Fischer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:17 am    Post subject: No. The white ones are different cars. Reply with quote

snotchback wrote:
Is this the same Notch? The plates #'s are not the same and besides the foglights too.
I noticed this Notch has side moldings, whats up with that anybody know why. Confused just wondering.


No. The white one with the foglights is the (known) prototype left at the Karmann factory. Karmann has one original T351 (Type 3 convertible) and one original T341 (Type 34 convertible). Both have been driven by Johannes Beeskow (yes, the constructor of the Rometsch "banana", who worked at Karmann when he left Rometsch). And the picture is from the basement of the Karmann Collection at Osnabrück, very likely from mid 2007 (I figure from the arrangement of the cars).

VW has a red T351 (also well known over here in Germany) in the VW museum collection, but no authentic T341 (the silver one VW shows once in a while is a reproduction).

And the picture with the bicycle racer is the third T351. I have been knowing of its existence for many years, and I have (later) pictures when it was green, but never saw early pictures until yesterday, so this is very exciting.

Regards Jörg
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: No. The white ones are different cars. Reply with quote

Joerg Fischer wrote:
snotchback wrote:
Is this the same Notch? The plates #'s are not the same and besides the foglights too.
I noticed this Notch has side moldings, whats up with that anybody know why. Confused just wondering.


No. The white one with the foglights is the (known) prototype left at the Karmann factory. Karmann has one original T351 (Type 3 convertible) and one original T341 (Type 34 convertible). Both have been driven by Johannes Beeskow (yes, the constructor of the Rometsch "banana", who worked at Karmann when he left Rometsch). And the picture is from the basement of the Karmann Collection at Osnabrück, very likely from mid 2007 (I figure from the arrangement of the cars).

VW has a red T351 (also well known over here in Germany) in the VW museum collection, but no authentic T341 (the silver one VW shows once in a while is a reproduction).

And the picture with the bicycle racer is the third T351. I have been knowing of its existence for many years, and I have (later) pictures when it was green, but never saw early pictures until yesterday, so this is very exciting.

Regards Jörg


Can you post the pictures of when it was green? Or send them to me? Very curious!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Karmann built the Notch cabrio's, I wonder if they have any of that original Silver/Beige material on the shelf?
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Joerg Fischer
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: No. The white ones are different cars. Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
Can you post the pictures of when it was green? Or send them to me? Very curious!


No, sorry - I am not allowed to show or give those pictures away. Those are shots from a private photo album and the owner does not want to make them public at all.

Btw the pictures show nothing new and nothing special, the car is even only in the background. You see a green Type 351 with elements/parts from a 1500 S. At the beginning (years ago when I got the pictures) I was not even sure if it is/was an original convertible, and I did not know what happened to it. I started searching / investigating for quite a while and found out what happened: wrecked after an accident in the mid 70ies over here in Germany. Gone forever, definitely! And yes, it was an original. Definitely.

Regards Jörg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: No. The white ones are different cars. Reply with quote

Joerg Fischer wrote:
notchboy wrote:
Can you post the pictures of when it was green? Or send them to me? Very curious!


No, sorry - I am not allowed to show or give those pictures away. Those are shots from a private photo album and the owner does not want to make them public at all.

Btw the pictures show nothing new and nothing special, the car is even only in the background. You see a green Type 351 with elements/parts from a 1500 S. At the beginning (years ago when I got the pictures) I was not even sure if it is/was an original convertible, and I did not know what happened to it. I started searching / investigating for quite a while and found out what happened: wrecked after an accident in the mid 70ies over here in Germany. Gone forever, definitely! And yes, it was an original. Definitely.

Regards Jörg



Thank you for sharing that. Can you tell the story as you know it from the begining of #3? All the way until it was crashed.

thanks
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DONGKG
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al least, share to us the pictures in the future.

We would really appreciate that, buddy.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a new picture in the samba gallery, posted by "philman":

a genuine T341 or a home made converson, anyone...?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


or...., the roof section may just have been eaten by the rust devil Laughing Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

belgianboxer wrote:
There's a new picture in the samba gallery, posted by "philman":

a genuine T341 or a home made converson, anyone...?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


or...., the roof section may just have been eaten by the rust devil Laughing Wink

regards,
Paul
4 lug. Has to be a chop.
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend to agree with Neil as well. Most "real" conversions were of 63s belive it or not. This being a 4 luger limits it.
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Joerg Fischer
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello from Germany,

after 3 years I have to give a little update: I called the silver T341 (-> a lot of pictures in this thread) a reproduction (for good reasons). But I am somewhat wrong.

My research on the chassis is correct, it's from 1969. But there is/was one thing that bothered me quite a while: the car the chassis belonged to was green, the car is now silver. When I inspected it (which was rather difficult...) I found white color (L87) underneath the rear seat. How does white color fit to a former green now silver car?

Let me quote what I wrote a few pages before:

Joerg Fischer wrote:
Amazing is that for building that Cabriolet they used original parts! Even the plastic covers inside (which are special Cabriolet parts) are new (uncracked) and original. Perfect - so I really wonder why they did not use a 1962 or 1963 model as a base for that really nice work.


I did more research and finally investigated that the shell is from 1961...

Now "the circle closes" (as we say over here) and I know why everything looks "so original"... Wink

Best Regards and a Happy Christmas 2010

Jörg Fischer


Hope to see many of you in August 2011 at Georgsmarienhuette, Germany, for our 50th T34 anniversary (with more than 50 T34 attending). If you are really interested in the Cabriolet-story -> there is a lot I can show you then...

--> http://50-jahre-typ-34.de/ <--
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: VW Fact #131 - 1500 Cabriolet Reply with quote

jaransonT3 wrote:
79SuperVert wrote:
VW Fact #131: "The proposed 1500 cabriolet was not produced because of torsional rigidity problems."


This could very easily be a big part of the reason, although I suspect potential market, performance, and cost played a big role in the decision to not produce a Type 3 Cabriolet.

I have a bit of interesting information regarding this that I posted on the vwtype3.org list years ago. Dave Hall sent me a page from the test report he has on the 69 Fasty. It lists the Torsional Stiffness of the Fasty as 15,160 ft-lbs/deg and the bending stiffness between 18,180 and 31,250 lb/in depending on whether you measure on the pan or body, respectively.

Now this doesn't mean much until I put a little perspective on it. So here is a short list of stiffnesses for other cars from some Ford data that I came up with...

Vehicle Stiffness Comparison
Car___________________________Torsional Stiffness (ft-lbs/deg) __Bending Stiffness (lb/in)
1969 VW Fastback ________________15,160 ___________________18,180 to 31,250
1989 Mustang w/o glass ____________3,464 ______________________33,015
1989 Mustang Convert. w/o glass ____1,559 ______________________16,568
1987 Honda Accord _______________6,100 ______________________54,600
1987 Honda Accord w/o glass _______4,800 ______________________55,000
1990 Toyota Cressida _____________7,360 ______________________77,240
1990 Toyota Cressida w/o glass _____4,634 ______________________72,029


A couple of notes of interest:
1. The 69 Fasty has a very good torsional stiffness. The highest on the whole list was 16,675 ft-lb/deg! Higher is usually better to a point. I checked around and today's cars seldom get much above 15,000.

2. Chopping the top off has a significant effect on both torsional and bending stiffness as can be seen in the 89 Mustang data. The contvertible body had been reinforced already, but it still cut the stiffnesses in half!

3. Filling in the large holes in the body (such as window openings and sunroofs) has a significant effect on the torsional stiffness as shown in the Honda and Toyota data. The glass in question is the windshield and rear window. keep in mind too that glass is about a third the stiffness of steel and although the glass is thicker than the steel used in the roof panel, their specific stiffnesses would be similar.

In general, the vehicle is constrained at the suspension hardpoints (whereit attaches to the body, in the case of the T3 probably the outside edge of the front beam and the upper rear shock mounts) and then loaded by either twisting the front relative to the rear (torsion) or loading the center of the body for bending. The bending stiffness is the resistance to bending between the wheels front to rear. They generally do not concern themselves with the front and rear overhang since it contributes very little to do with the overall NVH and ride and handling of the car.

The torsional stiffness of the vehicle structure, in combination with the suspension, is very important for cornering behavior of the vehicle. Remember that most of the feedback to the driver comes through the body structure. The bending stiffness is also important for vehicle ride and handling as well as the NVH.

We do not test static bending and torsion so much any more. Now we suspend the body structure by bungee chords and hit it with a calibrated hammer (seriously) and measure the vibrational response of the vehicle with accelerometers and look for natural frequencies of the structure. We want these natural frequencies to NOT align with road load frequencies and engine/transmission frequencies. Otherwise they would excite the natural frequencies of the body structure and the passengers/driver would feel it. This is why generally speaking you want the body as stiff as possible since most of the road load and engine vibrations are at lower frequencies.



I find that very ironic that the type 3 has such great torsional rigidity yet it doesn't have a front engine with rear drive like the other cars to take advantage where this rigidness becomes very important.

lol Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:24 am    Post subject: Re: Guten Tag... Reply with quote

Joerg Fischer wrote:
The (red) one at the VW museum is very likely from 1962. I do not have the VINs though.

If memory serves me (20+ years ago), it was 016xxx something. I remember being shocked it was so high. I always assumed it would be really low (under 1000).

I have over 100 photos of it in my storage from when the museum let me crawl all around it. I'll try and dig them up tomorrow.

Sorry to bump an old thread, but it was a good read.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well as long as you bumped it, I'll add a comment that is 8 years in the waiting!

Those figures for Type 3 torsional rigidity are impressive, and explain why it does a great job over rough roads and even off-road.

It also shows a pretty poor bending stiffness, at least compared to modern cars; this is probably due to modern crash standards making the basic passenger cage very stiff, with crumple zones at each end.

I noticed that my '71 fastback has a harder time with the doors latching easily when I have jacked it up. More specifically, with all four corners on jackstands, or on the ground, it is perfect. But while one side is raised using the stock jacking point, that side's door is noticeably harder to close. It goes back to normal after lowering it to the ground and jouncing the car a bit.

This is a rust-free California car that has never been hit from the side, so the original stiffness is what I have today.

I could see this could be made much worse if the roof is chopped. So maybe it was the bending stiffness, not just torsional stiffness, that made it difficult from an engineering standpoint.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just seeing some detail shots you have is reason enough to bump this sucker up. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
Just seeing some detail shots you have is reason enough to bump this sucker up. Cool

Took me a while to find them. I only have a few. Gregg wanted to replicate one (we were young and dumb) so I might have given the majority to him.
Unfortunately the VIN tag pic is blurry. :-/
I'll keep looking for my folder where I had a bunch of VIN's written down, but I have been looking for that folder for years now.

Few pics of pics just so this isn't a total waste. I need to scan them so they are easier to look at.

Me in the vert (with permission) 20+ years ago.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Blurry tag.

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Misc shots.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really nice detail on how they stiffened the body.

Now I am understanding why this model would have been so expensive to produce. With that sort of extra machining and tooling it's pretty obvious that they were intending to compete with the 190SL and maybe the Pagoda. I am wondering from the rocker design if they were not already aware of the rust issues of the sedan and wagon. Rusted out rockers/ heater channels on a Cabrio would have been a disaster.

It looks incredibly well built but it probably would have been at a price point where one could have either bought a Beetle/ Ghia convertible and saved a huge sum of money, or bought an SL for not too much more.
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