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Propane conversion article for aircooled bus, interesting
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cdennisg Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamdonquixote wrote:
I can't see for the life of me why this would be a worthwhile endeavor.

No, the engine will not last longer on propane, it will be very hard on it.

When I asked Bob Donalds once ( who built scores of sp engines for Zambonis ) what the propane was was like he said.

"Imagine a 16 kid driving a bus up mount everest"

Its way hard on the valvetrain.

and thats just what I want in a bus, to have less power and have to bum around for the cheapest propane Rolling Eyes


Why is it hard on the valve train? Seriously, I want to know. I understand you think propane is a poor idea, but can you tell us the reasons why rather than just saying it's bad?

For Oceanarts, the octane rating on fuel today is calculated differently than it was when these cars were built. Current octane ratings aren't as far off as you may think, but the fuel has definitely changed since then. My VW's run OK on 10% ethanol, but seem to have less power and certainly don't get the same fuel mileage they once did.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked into this a good while back ago. I was going to attempt to run a dual fogger system. Did alot of research, althought I do not remember alot of the info I came accross. There were a few things that had to be done to the engine although not alot. You do loose the power (what little you started with) and thats why I looked into the double fogger system.
I never got any further thought after going further and check the cost for the system..... not cheap just for messing around. So just walked away from it.
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krisbeetle
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember, propane also has a higher octane rating, 110 if I remember correctly, so you can bump up the compression ratio to take advantage of that. I think 10:1 and possibly 11:1 is attainable.
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cdennisg Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.type2.com/bartnik/tech.htm

Interesting reading concerning the octane ratings of fuels. Short and to the point. Scroll down the page to "miscellaneous" and click on "what type of fuel should I be using"
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krisbeetle
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
iamdonquixote wrote:
I can't see for the life of me why this would be a worthwhile endeavor.

No, the engine will not last longer on propane, it will be very hard on it.

When I asked Bob Donalds once ( who built scores of sp engines for Zambonis ) what the propane was was like he said.

"Imagine a 16 kid driving a bus up mount everest"

Its way hard on the valvetrain.

and thats just what I want in a bus, to have less power and have to bum around for the cheapest propane Rolling Eyes


Why is it hard on the valve train? Seriously, I want to know. I understand you think propane is a poor idea, but can you tell us the reasons why rather than just saying it's bad?

For Oceanarts, the octane rating on fuel today is calculated differently than it was when these cars were built. Current octane ratings aren't as far off as you may think, but the fuel has definitely changed since then. My VW's run OK on 10% ethanol, but seem to have less power and certainly don't get the same fuel mileage they once did.


actually engines tend to last longer on propane than regular gas. Have you ever seen the crank case oil on a propane engine after the same amount of KM as a gas engine? much cleaner

as far as less power I have heard that there is a 10 percent power loss when converting. If you do not build the engine for propane or take advantage of the higher octane this is probably true as you are igniting the propane far before its flash point.

at this point with propane at 78 cents a liter and gas 99 cents its not worth it at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of this. Not so much for savings or environmental reasons but for Inovation/novilty reasons. Sounds like a fun project and a challenge to get it running good with a dual fuel set up. lets keep this up. Cool



just found this link. a good read and very informative

http://www.type2.com/~keen/west/nodark/other/lpg
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trainingman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a 1966 split bus with natural gas.........

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldclan/sets/72157616559780222/


Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

propane has no lubricating properties its very hard on the valves and cylinders the only way i could think of making it work well is using a oil injector system like on a 2-stroke

propane is but left for cooking

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sub-hatchtim wrote:
propane has no lubricating properties its very hard on the valves and cylinders the only way i could think of making it work well is using a oil injector system like on a 2-stroke

propane is but left for cooking

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Gasoline has lubricating properties?
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sub-hatchtim
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gasoline contains certain additives that aid with lubrication such as tiny amounts of lead and zinc
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Culito wrote:
sub-hatchtim wrote:
propane has no lubricating properties its very hard on the valves and cylinders the only way i could think of making it work well is using a oil injector system like on a 2-stroke

propane is but left for cooking

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Gasoline has lubricating properties?


Yes actually, it does. That is what makes in-tank fuel pumps work. (though often they fail early, that is a design/construction flaw)

So if propane has no lubricating properties, how is it that so many propane engines seem to last a long time? I really want to know the facts on this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

most propane powerd cars are not actually full propane powerd, most do their majority of driving on gasoline then swap over to lpg, some use it as an assist to help increase mpg
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So anyone get around to trying this recently? I still want to try this. I have found a good tank. I think its 8 gal. If anyone does this please take lots of pics. A good how to would be great as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject: The EPA can stick it Reply with quote

The Propane or natural gas conversion is very popular in every other country but the USA. Its also legal everywhere else. Parts of Italy use it exclusively. For some reason the EPA in the USA thinks that a safer, less polutant and cheaper gas is bad. As long as your vehicle is Pre-76 they have no say in the mater. The only issue that may be cause for trouble is filling the tank. I plan on tapping into my home gas supply to make my own filling station which IS legal. However by using the gas to power a motor vehicle I wont be paying a road tax. I'm pretty sure the EPA wont show up with a warrant.
Safety:Propane doesnt "pool" like gasoline when spilled. Propane has a higher flash point. Propane tanks are far more durable than gasoline tanks.
Cleaner: Propane burns 70% cleaner than gasoline. Cleaner for the air we breath and cleaner for your beloved VeeDub. Less carbine in your rings, bearings, valve seats etc. Essentually, you would have fewer oil changes.
Performance: Propane has a higher octane rating but doesnt expand as much as gasoline. Less performance but not by much. You can run a higher compression ratio or a longer duration cam to easily compensate. Also propane naturally compensates for changes in atmosphere, it is self-atomizing and finally CHEAPER.
It seems like the going rate to have the conversion done is around $3500 with NO warrantee. I suggest the "Do-it-yourself" method for under a grand. This is not a new idea and the resources are endless.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at this a while back, and noticed a plethora of carb options. Anybody know the correct size carb for an ACVW?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: The EPA can stick it Reply with quote

tattoo8877 wrote:
...Propane doesnt "pool" like gasoline when spilled.


I've seen a couple boats explode from propane. I thought it did pool.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: The EPA can stick it Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
tattoo8877 wrote:
...Propane doesnt "pool" like gasoline when spilled.


I've seen a couple boats explode from propane. I thought it did pool.


Propane is heavier than air, so it will "pool" if given an area to collect in. like say a boat hull.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a side note with the gas we have these days, not to mention its getting worse Ethanol is taking over. That stuff is crap and will destroy a vw engine. I might be making the swap to gas soon I've been thinking of ways to do it. Dual fogger system is one idea I've had. Wouldn't be to hard to make just no time right now.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493553&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
65 dlx Slow build
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391061
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just thinking the same. I just moved to NorCal and the E10 is really killing the bug. I drive 150 miles a day and can only squeeze 25mpg out of the bug.

stock 1600
dual ict
412 trans

It used to get 29 but now I am lucky to get the 25 on a good tank.

I have some CB FI manifolds which I am thinking to put some injectors (was going to put water injection). Can you use injectors for propane and run a MS box to regulate? This way I can have the dells running gas and the injectors for propane.

Maybe an engle 125 and 10:1 on a 1915?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No propane is delivered to the cylinder as a gas. Not as a liquid, so injectors wouldn't work. You have to run a evaporator, that allows the propane to expand into a gas. Not to mention shuts it off when you kill the key.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493553&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
65 dlx Slow build
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391061
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