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woggs1 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2007 Posts: 531 Location: South Pacifica California
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Rusted Coolant pipes near engine question. |
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New member, new 83.5 Westy owner, first time VW owner.
I did a search but didn't find much. I bought an 83.5 Westy a few weeks ago for $2000 with a rebuilt engine and it runs great. However, I was reading up on it and decided to change the stock fuel lines, then I looked at the heater hoses, and decided to replace those, then I checked the radiator hoses, so I now am replacing those. Same with the brake lines, and the gas tank seals. I then noticed that the metal coolant pipes are very rusty near the engine, but are in great shape all the way back. I am considering just cutting the pipes below the rust, and then running a hose to the cut, with some kind of connector between the stock replacement hose and the new hose to the pipe. Has anyone tried this? will it work with no lip where the new hose will attach? Sorry if this has been covered.
Mark |
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hiram6 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2006 Posts: 1880 Location: Beautiful South
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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check some of the vendors who sell stainless steel coolant lines. Thy offer a kit specificlly to address this issue tith the early waterboxers. I know that Terry Kay, who posts on here often has them for sale in the classified section. Click above on "classifieds", and then look in the Vanagon parts section. I'm sure he or someone has some on there for sale. _________________ 1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning. |
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hiram6 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2006 Posts: 1880 Location: Beautiful South
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Heck, look at me, I even did the leg-work for you. Click on this
http://community-2.webtv.net/VanStuff/VanagonWestfalia/
and scroll about half way down the page. _________________ 1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Take a stroll over to the samba.com Vanagon parts section--you'll find the cleanest, simplest way to solve the rusted out pipe problem ---
Chop them out--slip the new sections in--your done.
Good Luck-- _________________ T.K. |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Is anyone else concerned about the potential galvanic corrosion caused by the use of stainless as cooling tubes? _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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woggs1 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2007 Posts: 531 Location: South Pacifica California
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info, it looks like I will be ordering the stainless steel kit. As for galvanic corrosion, is coolant an electrolyte? Even if it is I will take my chances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
After I change the brake lines, the heater hoses, the coolant hoses, and the fuel lines, is there anything else I should change out. I need this thing to be dependable. Also, there is an '84 Vanagon with a complete AC system at the junk yard, Is it possilbe to install this in my 83.5 non A/C westy?
Thanks,
Mark
http://jet-man.com/playervideo.swf?video=jetman2007.flv |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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<<Is anyone else concerned about the potential galvanic corrosion caused by the use of stainless as cooling tubes??>>
Yes, I am very interested in the galvanic corrosion properties of 304-L stainless tubes within a cooling system. _________________ T.K. |
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skaaudivw Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 316 Location: wesT hartford, ct
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Bought Terry's SS repair sections for my 85. Nice quality and a must for those rusty rear end pipes. Also easy DIY job. |
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0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3416 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to hijack this post but on the same subject, I wonder why VW switched from steel pipe to plastic pipe (87 to 91)?
My thinking is the steel or stainless steel (as Terry Kay) would help to evacuate the heat of the coolant, steel may get dings but won't break, plastic get brittle with time and heat and UV.... any idea? thanks
dan |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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<<I don't want to hijack this post but on the same subject, I wonder why VW switched from steel pipe to plastic pipe (87 to 91)?>>
Dan,
The answer for this question is simple.
The steel pipes rusted out and sprung leaks.
<<My thinking is the steel or stainless steel (as Terry Kay) would help to evacuate the heat of the coolant, steel may get dings but won't break>>
Your right---
The stainless does help cool down the engine. _________________ T.K. |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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I thought they switched to plastic in 85?
As far as galvanic corrosion, I think the pipe would need a connection to the frame, as in a metal plating tank. This electrical connection is broken though, with the pipe going into rubber. And with T.K.'s tubes, even if it had this electrical connection nothing would happen. |
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0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3416 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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yup..yup..
steel rust, yes... why not galvanized steel, stainless steel, copper, teflon treated steel...?
oh well..... to tell you the truth I don't trust plastic... I even hate it... a Nikon or Canon camera in the '70 are wonderful in my hand.. solid, strong feeling... a Nikon or Canon camera in the '90/2000 is light and feel plasticky...if if you drop it.. it's gone... I dropped my 70' Nikon a couple time and it still working in 2007...
sorry for the rant or the "expression of my feelings toward plastic"
dan |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="90vana"]yup..yup..
<< why not galvanized steel, stainless steel, copper, teflon treated steel...?>>
M-O N-E-Y
The galvanized pipe might have caused some problems with the zinc plating and the aluminum.
Copper is too soft, teflon caoting is expensive so is stainless.
They wanted to maximize the profit statement---
Even tough the Vanagons' pretty much flopped.
Here in the midwest they did anyway.
The steel 83.5 to early 85 pipes were 1.25" thin wall steel.
Somewhere in late 85 they went to the 1.50" plastic pipe.
Cheaper?
Probably.
And maybe they went to the larger diamter for more fluid volume.
It was only a matter of time before the plastic dried up and failed.
They knew this. _________________ T.K. |
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Crankey Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 2656
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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loogy wrote: |
Is anyone else concerned about the potential galvanic corrosion caused by the use of stainless as cooling tubes? |
yes...I'm always concerned about galvanic reaction...not even joking. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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The plain jane steel coolant pipes would have been more guilty of causing an electroletical reaction in the aluminum than the stainless pipes.
A good grade of stainless won't hurt your Van or the engine.
This is why all food processing plants,& milk production facilities use stainless tubing, tanks, vats, etc.
It is impervious to acids, bases, and salts. _________________ T.K. |
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kayakwesty Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2007 Posts: 687 Location: East Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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it's why we use stainless steel in our nuclear plants, it's not affected by much.
you are worrying about nothing _________________ 1984 Westy 2.0 Jetta ABA Motor/1.8 head converted to auto tranny, with 180,000 on body, 55K on engine and transmission
B.5.5 Passat Wagen with 30v V6-67000 Miles
DAS AUTO
CHANGE YOUR FUEL LINES!
A post without pictures is useless
http://www.kayakwesty.com
http://www.waldensridgewhitewater.com/ |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Terry Kay wrote: |
The plain jane steel coolant pipes would have been more guilty of causing an electroletical reaction in the aluminum than the stainless pipes.
A good grade of stainless won't hurt your Van or the engine. |
Really?
The galvanic voltage aluminum is 0.70-0.90
The galvanic voltage for steel is 0.60-.070
The galvanic voltage for 300 series stainless is 0.00-0.15
In order to prevent or reduce galvanic corrosion, the galvanic voltages of the dissimilar metals need to as close as possible to each other. In the galvanic series, the metals with the higher voltage potential (aluminum in this case) becomes the anode when coupled with with a metal of lower voltage potential and therefore corrodes faster that it would if it were all by itself. Looking at the numbers above, it is clear to see that aluminum has a much closer potential to steel than it does to stainless steel.
Mild steel welded to stainless steel rusts (corrodes) much quicker than mild steel by itself for the exact same reasons, the large differences in galvanic potentials between the two metals.
Terry Kay wrote: |
This is why all food processing plants,& milk production facilities use stainless tubing, tanks, vats, etc. |
kayakwesty wrote: |
it's why we use stainless steel in our nuclear plants, it's not affected by much.
you are worrying about nothing |
Yes, but those facilities are made up almost entirely of stainless, not a stainless/aluminum mix therefore little or no galvanic reactions.
As far as the coolant being an electrolyte, it can most certainly. All it needs is a small electrical leak connected to the engine. Vanagons are obviously notrorious for ground and electrical issues so a small electrical leak could easily go unnoticed. Even if there were no electrical leaks, if the coolant is broken down too severely or mixed with water that has a high mineral content, it becomes an electrolyte very easily. The introduction of exhaust gases into the cooling system will break down the corrosion inhibitors in the coolant very rapidy allowing the coolant to become an electrolyte. Vanagons are also notorious for head sealing issues.
Provided none of the above applies, the corrosion inhibitors in the coolant will break down in time allowing the galvanic corrosion process to eat your engine alive if you fail to keep up on your maintenance. Yes, the same could be said for a system with steel or other kinds of coolant tubes but the galvanic difference between aluminum and stainless is so much greater than steel and aluminum that the corrosion process will progress much faster.
Stainless is simply not the correct choice for cooling tubes on an aluminum engine. It's great for keeping the outside looking pretty but the potential damge that it can cause to the engine are not worth it. Not to me anyway. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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woggs1 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2007 Posts: 531 Location: South Pacifica California
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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So if I install these pipes, how long before my engine crashes and dies? How many miles can I go before the disaster? |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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That's a difficult question to answer because there are just too many variables. It's like asking "If I drive my van down a salted snowy highway, how soon before it starts to rust?". Who knows?
I'm not implying that your engine will suddenly start falling apart the minute that you install a stainless tube into the cooling system. I'm not even trying to tell you what to do with your own van. The point is, you can do things to help prevent corrosion in the cooling system but eventually you will have some no matter how small. Aiding the corrosion process just isn't something that I am interested in given the choice. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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mr_vanagon Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2005 Posts: 589 Location: Southern Illinois (GO SALUKIS)
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Why not just use long runs of rubber hose held up by zip ties? Cheap, easy to install and easy to fix if needed? _________________ '68 Autostick Bug Mom bought new
'89 Tintop Vanagon Dad bought new |
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