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Rusted Coolant pipes near engine question.
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tikibus
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not steal this thread, but came across cold Galving spray rich in Zinc (98%?) doing the interior floor pans,etc. Would this work on the interior bare steel as a primer? Loogy you know your stuff. Structural Engineer?

My .02's is to go with NAPA's Green Hose. Many persons use it and have no complaints. Yes the steel dissapates heat while the coolant travels the front, but to repair and even get at the metal bracket that holds the lines up front, you may have to remove the gas tank, not fun. Depends what the PO did or not do with the van.
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levi
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr_vanagon wrote:
Why not just use long runs of rubber hose held up by zip ties? Cheap, easy to install and easy to fix if needed?

Why not? Use marine grade hose.
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mr_vanagon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not use regular old heater hose off the shelf at FLAPS? Every hose on a vangon (and most other cars) is a standard heater hose. As for cooling effects of the pipe, am I the only one not buying the idea that the radiator wouldn't be enough to cool the 6 gallons of green stuff without the help of the tube that moves the coolant? Seems to me that 90 horse beast in the back is plenty cooled by the large radiator the germans used. If I ever have a leak from a coolant pipe I'll replace it with a run of hose. I probably use a stainless clamp at each end too just for good measure.
Just a thought
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Dogpilot
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P51's P40's and all the new generation of water cooled aircraft, which use glycol, just like cars, use rubber hoses. Miles of rubber hoses. They do have the steel braid outer sheath for rubbing, but they are not all that special. Lets see 2" x 4' x 2 hoses, 2(pi)r x96" = 4.18 sq feet of surface area. A typical radiator has about 20 time the square footage of cooling area, so since it is not in the cooling path with a lot of air actually passing over it and the tubing is a wide diameter so the fluid would not get to transfer heat to the tubing. The amount of heat transferred would be a very small percentage of the total cooling equation.

If you are worried about impact damage of the hose, you could run the hoses inside a larger diameter, like 4' PVC pipe, to protect it like a conduit. The repair kits by GoWesty work fine, and cost less with lower shipping cost. I have spoken with a few folks that used them, and they seemed quite pleased.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My .02's is to go with NAPA's Green Hose. Many persons use it and have no complaints.


So I went to my local Napa, and they had bulk hose, but it was all too small. I asked if they would order it and he said I would have to order the whole box. Then I went to Kragens, and they don't do bulk coolant hose. I searched online and can't find anything. Any Ideas?
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The item you want is called Gates Green Stripe II.

I'm not 100% sure about this but I think that you need 1.5" hose.

Was the hose you saw at NAPA black with a gold stripe? This is the same product as the Gates Green Stripe II (which doeshave a green stripe on it) except that it is a NAPA version with the gold stripe. The NAPA part# for the 1.5" hose is NBH632 and the Gates part# is 24224.

I would try another NAPA if you have one available. NAPA Online does not sell this item. You can order the Gates Green Stripe II directly from Gates.
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woggs1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Was the hose you saw at NAPA black with a gold stripe?


No it was just black. I told him I wanted 5 feet, and I saw on the gates site it only comes in 3 foot lengths, so I think that explains why they couldn't help me. I just measured and 3 feet will be plenty. Also there are several Napa's around here (SF). I will keep looking. Thanks for the part #s, that is awesome, it will make it really easy for me now.

Mark
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a great idea, using good quality marine-grade hose. You'll need to rig a dependable way to suspend the lines where they transit that long free span amidships, because they'll be heavy and stretch when they're full of hot liquid, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

The OEM radiator is so oversized for the little boxer that heat dissipation from the hose runs is a negligible factor that can be sacrificed with no ill effects. I doubt that the VW engineers brooded over it for more than a few seconds, between shots of Schnapps, since they knew there was room for a huge radiator and it wouldn't increase the frontal area since it was going into a giant brick anyway. And if you think it had to be so large because the little pump at the back just couldn't produce adequate flow and lift fluid at such distance, then I would offer that you need to learn up on dynamic head in closed, pressurised pumping systems. Claims that changing to stainless pipes increase heat shedding meaningfully ignore the fact that stainless is one of the poorest conductors of heat among metals. The early stock galvy pipes would have shed more heat than stainless, and I doubt there's much difference from plastic. As someone pointed out, the surface area to volume in a 1.5" pipe is very small. If switching to stainless pipes from plastic makes your van run cooler, I'd suggest you look into a new radiator.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If by the way a guy does repairs is any indication of the overall condition of a vehicle, by tossing the rubber hoses, length wise, under the Van, just dropped whatever value you thought it was worth down to nothing.

I took a look at a pretty nice looking 85 GL maybe 8 years ago, and saw some green hoses swinging under it instead of the factory pipes.

I walked.

This cob job said a bunch about how the guy mantained the Van.

If for some reason you don't think the stainless is going to radiate any heat off of it--take a torch and wave it over one end of the pipe.
Maybe for about 10 seconds--
Stick your hand on the pipe --maybe a foot from where you were waving it.

You had better go see a doctor--you'll have a nice burn on your hand.

It radiates heat fast.

I took a infared temp indicator and pointed at my pipes and it read 190 degree's--the whole length of the pipe.
If you don't think the free air under the Van is going to cool them off--your not correct.

The marine hose won't work real well either---
It won't pass though the cross member too easy.
Maybe if you lube it up with a handful of grease it might--but the OD is too big to make it through the hole with the heater hoses all at once.

Hose insulates--the stainless will assist in keeping the engine cool--not all by itself--but as an accessory add on it works just fine.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you point your IR thermometer at a stock plastic pipe you'll read about the same temp. I'm sold.

I'm not saying there is no heat lost by the pipes running under the car. I'm saying it's negligible.
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tikibus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To support the Rubber hose, for that matter steel pipes, fab up a few U channeled brackets. There are welded bolts on the undercarriage to hold the seats for a regular People Mover OR follow the path of either option and DIY.

I'm guessing from the debate so far it is a personal and/or finacial taste for using either option.

To each their own.
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levi
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:


If for some reason you don't think the stainless is going to radiate any heat off of it--tale a torch and wave it over one end of the pipe.
Maybe for about 10 seconds--
Stick your hand on the pipe --maybe a foot from where you were waving it.

You had better go see a doctor--you'll have a nice burn on your hand.

That isn't radiating heat, that's conducting heat. Little bit of a difference. If it was so good at radiating heat, the heat would all be dissipated before getting to the other end.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What came first the chicken or the egg?

The tubing has to conduct heat before it can radiate it.

Try This---
Toss a 10lbs. brick on the trottle pedal, let the engine howl for 15 minutes, call the paramedics, now go grab the stainless non-heat radiating pipes.

Not only will you get a free ride to the burn unit at your local trama center, but the pipes and your Van will be permanently ID'ed with your palm print.

Let's see how them stainless pipes don't radiate any heat.

Who volunteer's for this test?

Ye of of little faith should give this a shot---and report back to the list pronto with your findings.

Adios,
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mr_vanagon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A handfull of zip ties should be more than enough to support the hose. Just slip them through the hols in the frame rails and zip, done. As for cooling effect of the pipes/hoses, who cares? The stock pipes are clearly not designed to be a cooling device. If they were wouldn't they have heatsink fins or something? The pipes need to get coolant to the far end of the vehicle. If it ends up cooler along the way I guess that isn't bad but it hardly seems like something that should be a factor in materials choice for pipes. I'm not looking to pick a fight with Terry (or anybody else). I just don't see this being an issue. You could alsways get an artist buddy to blow some custom glass tubes to replace the plastic ones. Should look cool (untill you drive on a gravel road).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry, Dude, please relax. No one is saying that they do NOTHING. People are just saying that what they do is insignificant compared to the radiator. That's what it is. It's true, and that's the way it should be. Your stainless pipes are neat and all that, but there are other ways to solve the problem.

You really gotta learn how to let things go. Stress is going to shorten your life, man, and that just ain't cool... like your pipes.

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damon,

Not stressed out at all---

Just trying to figure why anyone would hang rubber hose the full length of the bottom of their Van.

It not only looks bad, it's cheesey.

I basiclly was responding to ole-Levi who said the pipes didn't radiate any heat off of them.
Which is not true at all.

The radiator does do 99.9% of the work--no doubt in my mind.

However at 100 degree's at 70 mph it sure doesn't hurt to have an auxillary back up system helping the radiator out.
In the winter--- I have no argument's at all.

In the summer that heavy walled hose is gonna be like a thermos bottle , holding the heat.

I know how frugal most VW owner's are--
How many of them do you think have actually put in a new radiator just because the Van has over 100k on it, and donn't have a clue what kinda maintainence has been done to their ride?

I'll bet 1 outa 20.

The rubber hose heat retainer will be a big problem for these folks.
I'd wager on this factor too.

If they are trying to save foolish money now--do you think they will actually unzip the mattress outa the clear blue for a radiator for no reason?

Hell no.

Wait till the summer hits--and watch this list pile up with"
"Hey my temp needle is 3/4's of the way up--How Come? "
" Help"
"My engine is running hot and I blew the head seals"
"What do I do now?"

It'll happen--wait and see.


Hasta,
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jeremysmithatshawdotca
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry, you're not helping yourself. Saying that you agree the rad does 99.9% of the work is disingenuous when you go on to imply that the rubber hose will somehow prevent the radiator from doing it's job in the summer.

Just an observation.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read it again.
I implicated that a clear, functioning, radiator does 99.9% of the work.

And I also mentioned that not too many folks have them, being in the high frugality mode.

The hose will hold heat real good, amplifying the improperly maintained radiator problems.

The cooling system in a Vanagon is really weak in the first place--why would anyone want to keeep the coolant as hot as it possibly be ?
Compounded by a 20 year old half clogged radiator.
It needs all the help it can get, and the pipes do accept the free flowing air that passes by under the Van real good.

Be they steel, plastic or stainless.

The rubber hose treatment is a cheap shot that really doesn't add to the remotest possiblity that the coolant tubes may help keep the engine temps down.

You've just removed that possiblity from the equasion all together.

Sam & Dave said it the Best---

"It's your thing, Do What your gonna do"

Low buck is low buck--and some folks just can't help cobbing the job.

Here's another fact that most all of you forgot to even think about--and this is regarding the electrolsis factor allegidly set up by the stainless pipes, which is toatally an erronious thought.

No one mentioned the stainless thermostat that the coolnat passes through continuously, or the steel spinning water pump impeller's or shaft, which much like a spinning propeller on the back end of an outdrive of a yacht sets up a large electroletical charge to anything around it that's aluminum.

This is why the outdrives have a sacrificial annode to combat this problem--even with an aluminum spinning propeller.

Notice that the VW water cooled flat 4 doesn't have any such annode, and it survives.

The stainless coolant pipe witches electrolosis tale is just
that--a tale.

Nobody has concrete evidence, or a destroyed engine due to electrolosis because of coolant just flowing through some dissimilar metal pipes.

It's all heresay.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine found out that he had brass coolant pipes on his van. Good news. The same day he found out that his entire water jacket was rusted way beyond repair. Very bad news.

The galvanic voltage for brass is 0.40

Who knows if the brass caused the rust, but if it did, stainless steel would be that much worse.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And along with the brass coolant lines, your buddy has all of the service records for that Van.

He can pinpoint & knows of every coolant change since the Van was brand new.
He also knows 100% that there could never be any elctrolosis created in that coolant due to an low DCA level.

Ah--Ha--

Old ,hardly serviced, highly acidic coolant would be the biggest contributor of this phenomina than the material the coolant pipes were made out of.

If this was the case, there wouldn't be any copper, or brass radiator's used --anywhere, anytime, in any vehicle.

Whats the spinning water pump impeller , bolted directly to the aluminum block made out of?

Steel.

Big mis-match of materials--and that steel spinning impeller will cause more electrolosis than the tubes the coolant is riding in.

Of course your buddy has a sacrificial zinc annode in his coolant to prevent all of these possibilities--right?
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