Rusted Coolant pipes near engine question.

[climberjohn]

Calling Tencent . . .

What are your thoughts on the corrosion issue that Loogie mentions? Both of you guys really know your stuff, and sharing notes on this would be useful to hear.

-CJ
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'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often.

[Christopher Schimke]

And be honest, because you are not going to hurt my feelings by calling me out as a paranoid old whacko...although is probably some SMALL truth to that whacko part.
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[insyncro]

I have been using Aeroquip and Earl's -AN lines for a few years now without any issues. The cost is higher due to the reusable fittings, but no seams or metals inside the hoses. Many different lines are available at different price points. They all do the same thing, just some are flashier looking on the outside. They work extremely well for replacing the hard power steering lines as well. You must use a line that can handle it on the pressure side of the system.

These lines are flexible and can be routed where you need them, not where they were designed to go. This is very helpful when converting your van from the VW powerplant to a Subaru or other.

[Tristar Eric]

Doesn't take much to get TK going now days...

I just bought a set of VC stainless pipes for my Doka, I'm planning on refreshing the coolant at regular intervals.

My question to the metalurgists is: Is there a way to cancel the effects of electrolysis? I think I read that isolating the pipes would help. Would coating the inside with epoxy do the trick?
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[Christopher Schimke]

[Terry Kay]

This all sounds real serious.
Lions & Tiger's & Bears.

If the coolant is changed on a regular basis, the electrolysis levels won't be anything to even write about.

You are concerned about the stainless pipes cooking the inside of the aluminum engine--Dead.

Why didn't VW worry about the mild steel pipes they hung on the 83.5's to 85's?

Certainly they generated all ginds of galvanic activity inside of the engine.

Chris--
I would really enjoy to paruse the source of your documentation here.

Could you supply a supplimental source of your knowledge?

There sure is a bunch of high end engine/vehicle manufacturs in big trouble according to your elaborate information.

I'd like to examine the cornicopia of info you have on your roll-A dex..

JC Whitney / Warshawski's at one time carried accessory sacrificical annodes--that also gave you 20% better fuel economy.
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T.K.

[Paul Bus]

Thinking about this thread

How long has the orginal vw pipes lasted ? With anything it will find its way back to the ashes it was brought from.

Nothing is safe from the affects of the earth and corrision. There are protective messures we can take to prolong the effects of corrision but its a losing battle cause mother earth will claim what is hers !!

Having owed a house that is older than earth itself I can tell you she is coming to take what is hers !!

Enjoy your vechiles and be thankful there are options out there to prolong the death of your vdub

You know if you went aircooled you guys wouldn't be debating this
You would be debating cylinder head temps

Make sure your baby has been burped
_________________
Whos got my heady westy

Residue for president !!

[Terry Kay]

And this is pretty much my point.
And I'm not even trying to be a smart ass here--

I've got all kinds of machinery in the yard , that's lucky to get a coolant flush every 5 years---
But it's big cast iron stuff--so it takes longer to self distruct.
Somke of the Cat's are from the early 60's.

The trucks in the yard are a differnet story, and they get a flush every 2 years.
They all have well over 600,000 miles on them, the coolant is checked every year with litmus paper for acid levels, and the cooling systems are all fine.

All's a guy has to do is check the coolant--( it's real simple) and regardless of what kinda tubes our running you will be able to moniter if the galvanic activity is going arye---

It isn't anything difficult.
99/9% of all coolant system failures are due to poor maintainence--not the materials the tubing is constructed out of.


Look at this way--

These poor underpowered , overweight, 4x8 rolling sheets of plywood have been flogged for how long?
And the cooling system is the farthest thing from most owner's minds, and the Vans keep on a running.

I think the galvanic reaction caused by the stainless pipes is nothing more than a remote hypothetical scare tactic at best.

I've never seen anything posted by Bricklin or Deloreon owner's anywhere regarding engine failures due to electrolysis because of their stainless cooling system hardware.

And this only a couple of examples-there's more stainless automtive components in use than you are aware of.
_________________
T.K.

[Christopher Schimke]

[Christopher Schimke]

[Wildthings]

Just a thought on marine rubber coolant hoses. Grab a radiator hose with your hands and see how hot they are. Bet you can't tell much of a difference between the steel pipes on an early WBXer, plastic pipes on a later one, TK's SS pipes, and rubber marine hoses. I would guess that they all have a surface temperature within a few degrees of each other. If you wanted to decrease the temperature of the coolant returning to the radiator you might even want to insulate the pipes. The heat passed from the supply pipe to the return pipe might offset any heat passed to the atmosphere.

My 83 1/2 still has what are probably its original steel pipes, thanks to Oregon not using road salts. I don't know much of the history of this rig except for the last 70,000 miles. I suspect from the wear to the carpet and seats it is very high mileage, much higher than my other two Vanagons which have about 300K each. I did replace a weeping water pump when I first bought it and saw that there was some pitting of the aluminium around the impeller, but the bolts had no corrosion which was a plus.

Just wondering if there is an easily visible date stamp on the radiator? I would love to have some idea how old the radiator is on this rig.

[240Gordy]

my marine rubber hose do indeed get very hot to the touch on the outbound side. the return hoses are nice and cool.

the marine hoses have more surface area, (being much thicker than metal pipe) and a rougher texture, which leads me to surmise they will radiate heat to the atmosphere quite readily.
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR

[Vanagonner]

I agree Chris, the SS tubes will increase the cathodic area, resulting in a higher current density in the aluminum (anode).
Here's a paragraph for anyone wants to skool up-
(college chemistry)
Factors Affecting Galvanic Corrosion
1. Area Effect.
When current flows between the anode and cathode, the CURRENT will be the same in the anode and cathode independent of the surface area of each electrode. It is the CURRENT rather than the CURRENT DENSITY which is equal for the anodic and cathodic reactions. Therefore, if the current flowing between the anode and the cathode is one amp and the surface areas are one cm2, then the current density in each electrode is one A/cm2. However, if the area of the anode is only 0.1 cm2, then the current density in the anode with the same one amp flowing is 10 A/cm2. From Faradays Law, the corrosion rate depends on the CURRENT DENSITY in the anode. In this case decreasing the surface area of the anode increases the corrosion rate by a factor of 10.
As a general rule to minimize galvanic corrosion, the anode area should be large and the cathode area should be small. This leads to a result that on first appearance would seem incorrect. For protection from galvanic corrosion, the CATHODE of the system should be painted if a coating is applied. This arises from the area effect, in that if the paint is damaged by a scratch for example, then a small cathode to large anode area ratio is formed which results in minimizing corrosion rates. If the anode is painted, then damage to the paint results in a large cathode to small anode ratio which results in large corrosion rates in the anode and rapid penetration into the metal.
The anode to cathode area effect is an important characteristic. It is important in several other forms of corrosion including pitting corrosion, crevice corrosion, stress corrosion cracking and corrosion fatigue. Remember the important effects of the anode to cathode area ratios.
_________________
Sage
'82 Westy 1.6 D
the mighty n/a

[thummmper]

Im a buddhist myself on tuesdays. how much surface area does a 340 chrysler v8 have inside it? does anyone know? does anyone know about the thin-walled waterpump housing hanging on the front of that old anchor?
You guys are playing tennis with marine questions. stainless is king. terrys pipes cant possibly equal the surface area within a porous cast iron 396 with wet exhaust ports [each and every one] or a 383, or the piec'o crap veetens that ford is crapping out with aluminum heads.
get a piece of zinc and hang it in your burp tank if you want---[by the way, the 340 water pump dissimilar metals experiment failed. they were always replacing them]. the rub occurs when you have aluminum or brass touching ferrous metals like stainless, iron or steel. it accelerated corrosion tenfold. that's why water heaters come with insulators to keep dissimilar pipe metals from touching. zinc. todd

[jwallis]

I'm probably missing some things, but in summation:

stainless:
+dissipates heat
+hopefully won't cause rust within several years
+shiny
-expensive
-may cause rust after some years

plastic:
+won't rust
+cheaper than steel
-will eventually crack/need replacement
-doesn't dissipate much heat

rubber:
+won't rust
+cheapest
+available at flaps
-doesn't dissipate heat
-will eventually need replacement
-looks cheap

I think the heat dissipation argument is nil since VW went from steel to plastic in '85. Very likely the plastic will dissipate less heat. With all this in mind, seems rubber is the way to go. There are already rubber hoses running the length of the van for the heat exchanger in the front anyway right? Why not run another set alongside them...?

There seem to be (a couple years ago) 1 set of people discussing which rubber to buy and 1 set debating whether stainless causes corrosion, but I still don't see the steel people giving any reason not to go rubber (except that it looks cheap). Since this WAS a while ago, has anyone with rubber had problems?

[240Gordy]

Rocky Mountain sells aluminum pipes, that seems the least risky way to go, unless you are not scared of rubber. The rubber hoses worked just fine in my van.
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR

[jwallis]

I looked under my van and the original black steel pipes look great from the outside. How stupid is it to assume that if I don't see rust outside it won't be too bad inside? Also, what about the steel crossover pipe going across the top of the engine? That guy looks pretty rusty...

[Jake de Villiers]

[Tooharsh]

I too have been wondering if there is any chance of the steel lines rusting from the inside out. From what I have read it seems like they rust from the outside, if that is the case then I think I am ok for now. Can anyone say they have seen these lines runt from the inside out?
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1984 Vanagon Tin Top, 69,000 miles, Manual Transmission.

[SL1]

I changed the rear sections with stainless last spring - not promoting the stainless issue, its just what I used.
The pipes from the rad to the wheel wells looked great and using the old hammer test sounded very solid, so I just replaced the rear sections.

The rear pipes above wheel well were very rusty, in fact a screwdriver went right through with little resistance. To answer the question, the pipes looked fine on the inside, no pitting was readily apparent. All the rust was on the outside eating its way in.

Beware of 'rust rabbits'
_________________
Steve
1985 GL Westy - 'Bullwinkle'
1978 Super Beetle - 'Rocky'