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mynameismud Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2002 Posts: 5928 Location: Middle of a corn field
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:04 pm Post subject: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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My '56 is on a later pan / later pedal assembly and I have disc brakes in front / drums rear with a dual circuit master cylinder. I got brakes to bleed, brake pedal pressure and after multiple attempts all electrical to function properly so, I took it out for a short drive around the area. 1st run was good, brakes worked without issues. Several days later another short run with no issues. Last weekend again, a shortish run where maybe 1/2mile in (on neighborhood blocks) seemed I was losing power and then I realized my front discs were locking up. I limped it back home, let it cool and wondered WTF? I had zero brake pedal travel now? So, I started to dig into what the reasons "may be". I measured the brake pedal from firewall and it was sitting at 6". Even when losening the pedal stop to try and adjust I am unable to get anywhere close to the 7 7/8" I have read about. My questions are: 1) Since i have a later pan, would this measurement be different from a '56 firewall? 2) Can / should I replace the existing stop - or would it matter? 3) Is the MC pushrod a different length for a dual compared to single MC?.
_________________ Even YOU can prevent FIRES!
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Dan22 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2019 Posts: 470 Location: Battle Ground, WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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I would check these things.
1. Is your master cylinder is made for disk brakes? No residual pressure valve for the pipes going to the disks. If you don't know, you may have to dismantle the M/C to see if there is one buried inside.
2. Your master cylinder piston is returning all the way back to the unloaded position.
3. Your pedal stop position should not change like that. Is there some debris down at the stop tab interfering? There should be no binding in the pedal when there is no push rod installed, and it should go full travel with the only the pressure of the axial return spring (seen in your pic).
4. Set the pushrod gap to the M/C piston at 1mm or 1/4" at the top of the pedal. This is a must so the bypass port is not covered when not applying brakes. _________________ 1-0900722 die langsame grüne Schildkröte
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=765074 |
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wimkever Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2004 Posts: 412 Location: Holland (the Netherlands)
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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Dan22 wrote: |
I would check :
4. Set the pushrod gap to the M/C piston at 1mm or 1/4" at the top of the pedal. This is a must so the bypass port is not covered when not applying brakes. |
** THIS **
Don't ask me how i know. _________________ a beetle is like a cocker spaniel, always funny but sometimes not listening |
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mynameismud Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2002 Posts: 5928 Location: Middle of a corn field
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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Thanks!
I'll check into the MC. I'm pretty sure it's for front disc's. I purchased complete beam mod, discs from Old Speed. As for the pedal stop, I completely removed, cleaned out any debris, reinstalled and still brake pedal won't fall more than what is shown. But, I will re-look at this as well. _________________ Even YOU can prevent FIRES!
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mynameismud Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2002 Posts: 5928 Location: Middle of a corn field
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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wimkever wrote: |
Dan22 wrote: |
I would check :
4. Set the pushrod gap to the M/C piston at 1mm or 1/4" at the top of the pedal. This is a must so the bypass port is not covered when not applying brakes. |
** THIS **
Don't ask me how i know. |
Yeah, this was next on the list as well after I checked the brake pedal stop plate. With this being said...Does the brake pedal distance I measured at 6in not matter much as long as there is the 1mm or 1/4" at top of pedal for pushrood gap to clear bypass port? I'm just curious as to the 6in measurement. (All this will be gone thru after i verify MC.) _________________ Even YOU can prevent FIRES!
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 589 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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Hello, one other thing to consider is the condition of the rubber brake lines. I once had an experience where my pedal sort of locked up and the problem was traced to rubber lines that started to deteriorate internally. They looked perfect. If you don’t know how old they are, just replace them. _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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mynameismud Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2002 Posts: 5928 Location: Middle of a corn field
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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Rustforlife wrote: |
Hello, one other thing to consider is the condition of the rubber brake lines. I once had an experience where my pedal sort of locked up and the problem was traced to rubber lines that started to deteriorate internally. They looked perfect. If you don’t know how old they are, just replace them. |
Replaced with new soft / hard lines when install of front end 3mths ago. May just redo as not a big deal & have MC out anyway. _________________ Even YOU can prevent FIRES!
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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mynameismud wrote: |
...Does the brake pedal distance I measured at 6in not matter much as long as there is the 1mm or 1/4" at top of pedal for pushrod gap to clear bypass port? I'm just curious as to the 6in measurement. |
It matters.
The need for almost 8" from the pedal tip to the firewall comes from the scenario where one of your two brake circuits fails.
In that case, the pedal will travel until the piston for the failed half bottoms out after almost 4" of pedal travel. This means your pedal travels halfway without doing anything at all. The remaining distance from the pedal to the firewall must be enough that the working half of your brakes gets full travel and pressure.
Without it, your pedal will be pressed against the firewall and your brakes wont work well, if at all.
This defeats the whole idea of having dual circuit brakes.
Maybe try elongating the hole in the pedal stop bracket so it can move further forward. _________________ Current Fleet:
'71 Fastback
'69 Westfalia
Retired:
'67 Beetle
'65 Beetle (x2)
'65 Bus
'71 Squareback |
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mynameismud Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2002 Posts: 5928 Location: Middle of a corn field
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes, Brake Pedal Stop, etc. |
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KTPhil wrote: |
mynameismud wrote: |
...Does the brake pedal distance I measured at 6in not matter much as long as there is the 1mm or 1/4" at top of pedal for pushrod gap to clear bypass port? I'm just curious as to the 6in measurement. |
It matters.
The need for almost 8" from the pedal tip to the firewall comes from the scenario where one of your two brake circuits fails.
In that case, the pedal will travel until the piston for the failed half bottoms out after almost 4" of pedal travel. This means your pedal travels halfway without doing anything at all. The remaining distance from the pedal to the firewall must be enough that the working half of your brakes gets full travel and pressure.
Without it, your pedal will be pressed against the firewall and your brakes wont work well, if at all.
This defeats the whole idea of having dual circuit brakes.
Maybe try elongating the hole in the pedal stop bracket so it can move further forward. |
Check. I was thinking of this as well but, as generally my assumptions bite me in the A@@. I'm going to pick up a new stop plate as well, seems the top lip of the existing is pretty gnarled up. _________________ Even YOU can prevent FIRES!
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