Broke down on our honeymoon in WA - [RESOLVED!]

[Mathew Zelezen]

Don't you always seem to break down on a Sunday evening when everything is closed. (Even worse, in a dry Native American town on the western edge of WA.!)

So we were on our way to Shi Shi Beach to camp overnight when the van lost power. I should mention we started out in the Sierra Nevadas a week ago and the van has been running great. Actually, more than great with all of this oxygen here at sea level.

Anyhow, I couldn't restart it and I didnt hear the fuel pump priming so I started looking into the electronics.
I found a burnt disconnected wire in the black box that houses the relays. It looks like it went to terminal 87 on the fuel pump relay. I spliced a new wire on and now the fuel pump primes but the van still won't start.
The relay looks a little hot around that spade upon inspection but they both audibly click when I turn on the ignition.
I switched the relays with no change and I'm not getting 12v to the coil.

Is there a way to determine if it's a bad relay?
Is there any way to bypass them to determine what's at fault?
We'll be camping in the Mahak tribe's general store with 5G service so any help would be appreciated.
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[0to60in6min]

It would help if you post a pic of the box and the relay you talk about.

[djkeev]

In the FAQ's there is a link to making a no start diagnosis harness.

My Karmann Ghia broke down on my wedding night back in 1975.

Wasn't a bad omen....... we're still together.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[crazyvwvanman]

The 12v to the ignition coil comes from the ignition switch.
No relay involved in that connection in a stock 87 Digifant harness.

If the 12v is really missing at the coil then common reasons would be the ignition switch or a burned out pin D15 on the back of the fuse/relay panel.

But since you say the fuel pump primes you must be getting some voltage to coil for that to happen, perhaps intermittently.
Maybe the voltage is too weak for the coil to spark but enough to trigger the power relay.

If you run a jumper wire from the alternator red wire post to the ignition coil black wires connection point that will hot wire the coil for testing purposes.
I'd prefer a fuse in that jumper wire, say 10 amps. Not required but a good idea if you can add it.
Each time you touch the jumper into place the relays should click, the fuel pump should prime, and the ICU valve should hum.
If that all happens try starting with the jumper connected.
Keep in mind that the key won.t turn things off with the jumper in place.

Mark

[Mathew Zelezen]

Mark,
I ran a jumper wire from the alternator to the positive side of the coil and tried to crank it but it does not start.
The fuel pump primes and the ICU valve hums but it won't turn over.
I'm not familiar with the location of the D15 pin..

Dave,
I'll check out that harness.
My new bride has been with me on frequent breakdowns in our travels together and is always positive and supportive. I'm a real lucky guy.
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[Igeo]

Please clarify...The starter engages and cranks the engine, but it won't start. Is that right,?
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[Mathew Zelezen]

That is correct.
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[Mathew Zelezen]

The fact that the wire burned off at the relay makes me wonder if the relay is the culprit. I traced the rest of the wire along the harness and its in good shape.. just the end was toasted.
Anyone know where that wire eventually goes?
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[Wildthings]

If jumping it doesn't work then the problem is not likely to be in the ignition switch or the D15 pin. Something shorted out that burned up the wire on the relay, your mission is to find it. It will be down stream from the relay and not on the supply side.

[Mathew Zelezen]

According to my tattered Bentley it appears that the wire from terminal 87 goes to the fuel pump. Wires all look good under here and it primes so thats.. confusing.
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[Abscate]

[Sodo]

Need to check if the problem is in the "fuel" system or on the "ignition" side.
It's super easy to check if the ignition side is working.

Pull the center coil plug wire out of the distributor and check if it can spark to ground.
The spark should jump 1/4” to ground.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[kamzcab86]

[Mathew Zelezen]

Thanks for the tests and suggestions guys.
I will check the back of the fuse panel and also confirm if I have spark from the coil first thing in the morning. It's 1030 here and dark and it's been a long day.
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[crazyvwvanman]

The purpose of jumpering from the alternator post to the coil black wires connection was to bypass the ignition switch and D15 pin.
If the jumper didn't help then something else is going on rather than one of those 2 things.

Looking back at your older posting history it seems you had some wiring issues with the Digifant harness that makes me wonder if you now have a replacement harness from a different and later year.

Unfortunately the Bentley diagrams show the injection system relays incorrectly after the 1987 diagram. Changes were made to the later relay wiring but it is not shown correctly in the later diagrams.

The 88/89 diagram page for the 2 engine relays is a hopeless mess but if your Bentley includes the 90+ diagram you can use that page instead for what those 2 relays do in later years.
That 90+ page shows what VW did after 1987 to move some other loads over to the FP relay.
In Digifant up through 1987 models the FP relay only powered the Fuel Pump.
After that the FP relay powers a bunch more stuff than just the pump.
Your damage to the FP relay wire could be from one of those other things.
Again this assumes you don't have the normal 1987 Digifant harness.

Mark

[djkeev]

Follow this link.

Kam updated the digifant manual.

Bookmark this link, better yet print this out and keep it in your bentley.

http://oldbluesblog.com/files/DigifantProTrainingManual_DoubleSided.pdf

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[djkeev]

Here is the diagnostic tool link .....

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=349429
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Mathew Zelezen]

Good morning gentlemen.
Early this morning a coffee truck pulled in to the lot and parked next to us to serve fisherman starting their day.
So I'm rested and caffinated and ready to fix this beast!

Here are some findings:
1. There is no spark coming from the coil to the center post of the distributor.
2. The fuel pump and the ICU valve both prime and hum with the key turned on.
3. The engine will crank but not turn over with a jumper between the alternator and the black positive side of the coil.

Mark,
Youre right, this is a wiring harness from a 87.
Would your No Start Diagnosis Harness help here?
I could make one up quuck but this diode is the only kind I have:

So what else does that leave us to check?
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[Mathew Zelezen]

I figured I'd take out the ECU and take a look at the board for signs of failure.

Looks like it got a little hot in that bottom left corner in the first pic.
_________________
87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans


Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

[steve244]

that seems to correspond with R72 and R67 on the flip side. Those resistors look cooked.

67 has the color symbols.

Here's a decode:

from this site

https://www.digikey.com/en/resources/conversion-ca...color-code

I'm not qualified to offer an opinion though.