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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
Redline High Performance Motor Oil IS exactly what you want to run! It's loaded with zinc and phosphorus and is IMHO THE BEST oil you can buy for your VW.  |
Thanks, that's good news. I pulled down their MSD sheets and there's not a huge difference in ZDDP levels between the two types...
High Perf: 0.6 to 1.2% Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
Racing: 1 - 2% Zinc C1-C14 dialkyldithiophosphate
Paul |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Their street oil, according to their literature is between 600 and 1200 ppm but if you look at the oil analysis of guys using this oil the tests are usually between 1200 and 1500 ppm.
Again, the big difference between the two types of oil is the detergent levels. The racing oil doesn't have it as they figure you'll be changing it often, like after each race. The high performance oil is meant to go much longer mileage as the additive package is different.
_________________
| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum.  |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| rrcade wrote: |
| ... ......Oil temps are around 220 or a little higher on Hot days. |
All of those numbers are telling you that 20W-50 is too thick. |
220 is not overly high at cruising speed. I'd be more worried if it were 250 or higher at cruising spped. |
I disagree. He's running at 220ºF on a day that's NOT a hot day. Also, WI flat territory. Imagine what his oil temps would be climbing the grapevine this time of year.
5W-30 oil will drop his oil temps, allowing him to cruise faster on hotter days.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
I disagree. He's running at 220ºF on a day that's NOT a hot day. Also, WI flat territory. Imagine what his oil temps would be climbing the grapevine this time of year.
5W-30 oil will drop his oil temps, allowing him to cruise faster on hotter days. |
For supporting reference, the weather today was close to 100 degrees F. I drove from home to NW Detroit, then from NW Detroit to downtown Detroit, then from there to Southfield at 70mph in agressive traffic, then sat/crawled in a jam for 20 minutes. There were 5 overheated cars on the side of the road. I had to shower and change clothes afterwards, but the 6 quarts of 10w30 in our Ghia never made it past 175 degrees.
Paul |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| rrcade wrote: |
| ... oil pressure is about 20 at idle and doesn't seem to go over 45 at cruise with the HD 20/50, ......Oil temps are around 220 or a little higher on Hot days. |
All of those numbers are telling you that 20W-50 is too thick. |
you need 10 psi / 1000 RPM. If you have 20 at idle that is ample. If you are crusing at 3500 RPM that is ample. I'll be when you drop to a thinner oil your pressure will drop and the temps stay the same. Thinner oil will not put more air through the cooler. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| .... when you drop to a thinner oil your pressure will drop and the temps stay the same. Thinner oil will not put more air through the cooler. |
It won't put more air through the cooler, but it will force more oil through that cooler. That is what causes the oil temp to drop with lower viscosity oil.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| rrcade wrote: |
| ... ......Oil temps are around 220 or a little higher on Hot days. |
All of those numbers are telling you that 20W-50 is too thick. |
220 is not overly high at cruising speed. I'd be more worried if it were 250 or higher at cruising spped. |
I disagree. He's running at 220ºF on a day that's NOT a hot day. Also, WI flat territory. Imagine what his oil temps would be climbing the grapevine this time of year.
5W-30 oil will drop his oil temps, allowing him to cruise faster on hotter days. |
He stated hot (as he said 2 posts above) . What kind of vehicle is this running in?
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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vwsb74
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 1201
Location: socal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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hi, I have been reading this topic for a while now but I still want to ask for my particular engine, my engine has zero miles but already broken in on dyno and it has a udo's tool lifters and drd iron chilled cam, my question is what particular oil should I use for the first 500-100miles?thanks.
_________________
74 super beetle
2011 ford explorer traded
2010 mazda 3 hatchback
2014 Honda odyssey
2180cc 48IDA clone
Xr310 cam =171hp@6k rpm sold so as the car😢 |
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spanky324
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2006
Posts: 1070
Location: Greeley Pa
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ask your builder!
Last edited by spanky324 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| vwsb74 wrote: |
| my engine has zero miles but already broken in on dyno and it has a udo's tool lifters and drd iron chilled cam, my question is what particular oil should I use for the first 500-100miles?thanks. |
I agree with Spanky, if your engine was built by Darren you should be asking him what oil he suggests and run that. Reason is, in case there are any warranty issues that come up later on.
On the other hand, if you are just seeing what we would suggest you run then we need more motor info than cam and lifters. What vehicle is it in? Complete engine specs, CR, oil pump size, external cooler? Are you willing to run top line synthetic, something a bit cheaper like Brad Penn, are you looking for a bargain oil to mix with break in additive?? What's the vehicle used for? DD, long highway trips, drags/weekend street car?? Questions, questions questions!!
_________________
| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
| JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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vwsb74
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 1201
Location: socal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| vwsb74 wrote: |
| my engine has zero miles but already broken in on dyno and it has a udo's tool lifters and drd iron chilled cam, my question is what particular oil should I use for the first 500-100miles?thanks. |
I agree with Spanky, if your engine was built by Darren you should be asking him what oil he suggests and run that. Reason is, in case there are any warranty issues that come up later on.
On the other hand, if you are just seeing what we would suggest you run then we need more motor info than cam and lifters. What vehicle is it in? Complete engine specs, CR, oil pump size, external cooler? Are you willing to run top line synthetic, something a bit cheaper like Brad Penn, are you looking for a bargain oil to mix with break in additive?? What's the vehicle used for? DD, long highway trips, drags/weekend street car?? Questions, questions questions!! |
hi, I felt its better to ask here since most guys here actually experienced running their car with different kinds of oils. so, heres my engine spec.
type1 1994cc/ tims stage2 heads/dual 44 idfs/berg full flow kit 26mm pump/bug pack deep sump/dtm with type4 oil cooler/udo lifters/9.25CR
this is in a super beetle and its a daily driver and occasionally long hiway trips like 2-3hrs drive. my question is what is the best oil for the first 500-100miles and afterwards ...I prefer cheap price as long it will not harm my engine. thank you.
_________________
74 super beetle
2011 ford explorer traded
2010 mazda 3 hatchback
2014 Honda odyssey
2180cc 48IDA clone
Xr310 cam =171hp@6k rpm sold so as the car😢 |
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morymob
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| This oil stuff makes my head hurt!!. My westy has used castrol synthetic for years and being fairly new to me want to continue. Now,checking with castrols co about the newest 'Titanium'(?) additive, their word says= to increase molecue film strength between metal to metal so they don't contact??? Guess i'm going to try it as theirs has worked well since '98,anyone else tried it?? |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| morymob wrote: |
| This oil stuff makes my head hurt!!. My westy has used castrol synthetic for years and being fairly new to me want to continue. Now,checking with castrols co about the newest 'Titanium'(?) additive, their word says= to increase molecue film strength between metal to metal so they don't contact??? Guess i'm going to try it as theirs has worked well since '98,anyone else tried it?? |
Have not tried the titanium version, although I use Castrol in all our other cars. Castrol Edge
with FST Titanium 10W-30 contains some zinc (0.57415 - 1.1368), so at least it's better than NO zinc. It would be fine with a Zddp additive. I used normal Castrol GTX with a zinc additive as break in oil on my engine and it did it's job well before I switched to synthetic.
Paul |
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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: Has anyone got the August issue of VolksWorld magazine? |
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In VolksWorld mag.July issue they went over basically how the oil system works and in the Aug issue they're gonna get into what extra add on stuff you can use for non stock engines as well as What kinds of oils should be used in HP engines.
Anyone have it yet? What did they say? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
with FST Titanium 10W-30 contains some zinc (0.57415 - 1.1368), so at least it's better than NO zinc. It would be fine with a Zddp additive. I used normal Castrol GTX with a zinc additive as break in oil on my engine and it did it's job well before I switched to synthetic.
Paul |
There is no spec out there that calls for no zinc/ZDDP. The minimum phosphorus that can be used in any API engine oil is 600PPM. Plus there is no upper limit for SN/SM GF-4/5 oils with a second number higher than 30. Since zinc is tied to phosphorus in the ZDDP molecule an oil will always have a minimum of around 700 ppm zinc, while most 0w40, 5w40, 10w40, 20w50 oils will have a minimum of 1000 ppm zinc. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
| morymob wrote: |
| This oil stuff makes my head hurt!!. My westy has used castrol synthetic for years and being fairly new to me want to continue. Now,checking with castrols co about the newest 'Titanium'(?) additive, their word says= to increase molecue film strength between metal to metal so they don't contact??? Guess i'm going to try it as theirs has worked well since '98,anyone else tried it?? |
Have not tried the titanium version, although I use Castrol in all our other cars. Castrol Edge
with FST Titanium 10W-30 contains some zinc (0.57415 - 1.1368), so at least it's better than NO zinc. It would be fine with a Zddp additive. I used normal Castrol GTX with a zinc additive as break in oil on my engine and it did it's job well before I switched to synthetic.
Paul |
I've used Castrol Syntec (now "Edge") since it came out. ZDDP additives are not needed with most synthetics, as the polymers already possess superior qualities to ZDDP anyways.
Years ago, in my Sun Valley shop, we had a "Slick 50" rep come in with a roller bearing friction machine to demonstrate why we needed to add Slick 50 to all our oil changes. He demonstrated conventional oil on the bearing machine, and it smoked and locked up after applying very little pressure. He added the Slick 50, and it required significantly more pressure to smoke the oil with the additive, but it did.
I asked him to try some Syntec 5W-50 in it, and no matter what- it wouldn't smoke or lock up.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Hippie
Samba Tinner
Joined: August 16, 2004
Posts: 1781
Location: Iowa: The Mud State
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Valvoline Synpower seems to be the winner in consistantly low iron counts in used oil analysis so that's what I use in the water-heaters. I still usually use Castrol conventional in the Bus. I really don't think they need higher than normal zddp past cam break-in period, especially since they are putting moly in most oils now. I at least never had cam/lifter issues in many thousands of miles running 800 ppm or less zddp oil. I think Amskeptic was way more than 100K miles on it before the Road Warrior got wrecked.
Ought to be more concerned about teen drivers than oil. |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| There is no spec out there that calls for no zinc/ZDDP. The minimum phosphorus that can be used in any API engine oil is 600PPM. Plus there is no upper limit for SN/SM GF-4/5 oils with a second number higher than 30. Since zinc is tied to phosphorus in the ZDDP molecule an oil will always have a minimum of around 700 ppm zinc, while most 0w40, 5w40, 10w40, 20w50 oils will have a minimum of 1000 ppm zinc. |
Any day you learn something is a good day. Thanks  |
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Altema
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| I've used Castrol Syntec (now "Edge") since it came out. ZDDP additives are not needed with most synthetics, as the polymers already possess superior qualities to ZDDP anyways. |
It's interesting that you mention Syntec. Before I rebuilt the engine in our Ghia, I switched to Syntec and was impressed by the fact that it reduced friction so much that my idle was 200rpm too high. I also recorded my best economy of 40mpg with the Syntec. A few changes later, I switched back to conventional oil of the same weight, and the idle rpm dropped too low and I had to adjust it again. The only thing I could attribute the consistent changes in rpm to are differences in friction. With that in mind, I was planning on using Syntec after the rebuild. But I got the impression (mostly from this thread) that you had to have zinc, so that took Syntec off my short list. Perhaps that should be ammended to say proper levels of ZDDP are required for conventional oil, but not for synthetics?
It should be noted that the bearings were all within the wear limits when I tore the engine down, the case measured to new specifications, and I re-used my cam and lifters. Right now, I have Valvoline VR1 synthetic, but was dissapointed when it appeared to have the same level of friction as conventional oil (no change in idle RPM). Redline is on my list for the next change and I know I can't go wrong with that, but now I wonder which one will give me less drag: Redline or Castrol Syntec?
| Tram wrote: |
Years ago, in my Sun Valley shop, we had a "Slick 50" rep come in with a roller bearing friction machine to demonstrate why we needed to add Slick 50 to all our oil changes. He demonstrated conventional oil on the bearing machine, and it smoked and locked up after applying very little pressure. He added the Slick 50, and it required significantly more pressure to smoke the oil with the additive, but it did.
I asked him to try some Syntec 5W-50 in it, and no matter what- it wouldn't smoke or lock up. |
I've done the Slick 50 treatment on our water pumpers, but I've never heard of anyone doing it every oil change. I think it's valuable as an ocassional treatment every few years if you use conventional oil, but doubt doing it every change or using it with a good synthetic will give you a favorable return on investment.
Paul |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| I've used Castrol Syntec (now "Edge") since it came out. ZDDP additives are not needed with most synthetics, as the polymers already possess superior qualities to ZDDP anyways. |
It's interesting that you mention Syntec. Before I rebuilt the engine in our Ghia, I switched to Syntec and was impressed by the fact that it reduced friction so much that my idle was 200rpm too high. I also recorded my best economy of 40mpg with the Syntec. A few changes later, I switched back to conventional oil of the same weight, and the idle rpm dropped too low and I had to adjust it again. The only thing I could attribute the consistent changes in rpm to are differences in friction. With that in mind, I was planning on using Syntec after the rebuild. But I got the impression (mostly from this thread) that you had to have zinc, so that took Syntec off my short list. Perhaps that should be ammended to say proper levels of ZDDP are required for conventional oil, but not for synthetics?
It should be noted that the bearings were all within the wear limits when I tore the engine down, the case measured to new specifications, and I re-used my cam and lifters. Right now, I have Valvoline VR1 synthetic, but was dissapointed when it appeared to have the same level of friction as conventional oil (no change in idle RPM). Redline is on my list for the next change and I know I can't go wrong with that, but now I wonder which one will give me less drag: Redline or Castrol Syntec?
| Tram wrote: |
Years ago, in my Sun Valley shop, we had a "Slick 50" rep come in with a roller bearing friction machine to demonstrate why we needed to add Slick 50 to all our oil changes. He demonstrated conventional oil on the bearing machine, and it smoked and locked up after applying very little pressure. He added the Slick 50, and it required significantly more pressure to smoke the oil with the additive, but it did.
I asked him to try some Syntec 5W-50 in it, and no matter what- it wouldn't smoke or lock up. |
I've done the Slick 50 treatment on our water pumpers, but I've never heard of anyone doing it every oil change. I think it's valuable as an ocassional treatment every few years if you use conventional oil, but doubt doing it every change or using it with a good synthetic will give you a favorable return on investment.
Paul |
My personal experience in twenty years of using it exclusively is that there's just no substitute for Syntec. I even use it in our Mercedes diesels with great results. However, always use conventional oil for break- in... with Syntec*, it never will break in, and that's a problem.
(*That's "Edge" to you young kids!)
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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