| Author |
Message |
rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
 |
|
Another respected industry info source is:
http://www.noria.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26779
Location: Colorado Springs
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| wheel607 wrote: |
| So has current wisdom changed.....built street car...Brad Penn or Valvoline? |
Hasn't changed
I have seen NO problems whatsoever traced to using VR1, or Brad Penn, or Joe Gibbs oil in classic engines, but I have seen several reports that VR1 makes more power. I am sure that pisses the other companies off  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zundfolge1432 
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
That is another great resource thanks for sharing, website easy to navigate |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BillingsDave
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Billings Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| I see people on here who swear by Valvoline VR1 20w50 and others who say it too thick and will cause overheating problems etc. and one should be using their 10w30 or single grade oil instead. My question is this, and I am not trying to be a smart a__. Does anyone know of any actual case where using Valvoline VR1 20w50 actually harmed a stock VW engine? And please no "my friend knew a guy whose cousin ----" ! Thanks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| BillingsDave wrote: |
| I see people on here who swear by Valvoline VR1 20w50 and others who say it too thick and will cause overheating problems etc. and one should be using their 10w30 or single grade oil instead. My question is this, and I am not trying to be a smart a__. Does anyone know of any actual case where using Valvoline VR1 20w50 actually harmed a stock VW engine? And please no "my friend knew a guy whose cousin ----" ! Thanks |
20W-50 seems to work ok with dual relief cases or type 4 cases. Where the problems can arise is in type 1 single relief cases with small oil passages. The thick oil can cause high oil pressure on a newer engine with tight bearing tolerances. Thus, the high oil pressure can bypass the oil cooler and cause the engine to run hotter.
I experienced this with 10w-40 oil in a single relief 1969 type 1 case. The engine only had 5k on it since rebuild. I lowered to 10W-30 and saw a 10* oil temperature decrease.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
overdrive
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2016
Posts: 75
Location: Not Sure
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| BillingsDave wrote: |
| I see people on here who swear by Valvoline VR1 20w50 and others who say it too thick and will cause overheating problems etc. and one should be using their 10w30 or single grade oil instead. My question is this, and I am not trying to be a smart a__. Does anyone know of any actual case where using Valvoline VR1 20w50 actually harmed a stock VW engine? And please no "my friend knew a guy whose cousin ----" ! Thanks |
20W-50 seems to work ok with dual relief cases or type 4 cases. Where the problems can arise is in type 1 single relief cases with small oil passages. The thick oil can cause high oil pressure on a newer engine with tight bearing tolerances. Thus, the high oil pressure can bypass the oil cooler and cause the engine to run hotter.
I experienced this with 10w-40 oil in a single relief 1969 type 1 case. The engine only had 5k on it since rebuild. I lowered to 10W-30 and saw a 10* oil temperature decrease. |
"bypass the oil cooler" You sure about that... ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BillingsDave
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Billings Missouri
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Thanks for the replies so far and I'm looking forward to reading more. I did read the entire thread with the diagrams etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like all the tests were done using 10w30 and the problems began because of high pressure when useing a 30mm oil pump. I would have liked to have seen the results using a heavier weight oil and correct size pump, but of course the tests were done back in 1979. So if running 20w50 here in Missouri with temps in the upper 90's does not result in high oil temps is there any reason to change? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BillingsDave
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Billings Missouri
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Max Welton wrote: |
None that I can think of.
Now if something in your usual driving changes (like going on a trip with sustained freeway speeds, adding a roof rack, etc) you should keep a close eye on temps.
But yeah, if it's working ... it's working.
Max |
Ok thanks. Actually we are getting ready to take a 2000 mile road trip in the middle of September through Kansas, Colorado, Nebraska, and back through Missouri. We will be using non-Interstate highways. I'm think it might be better to just change to Valvoline VR1 10-30. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frodge
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Dump
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| So vr-1 and brad Penn are the only non-synthetic oils that can be used in a stock engine without doing any damage? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| BillingsDave wrote: |
| So if running 20w50 here in Missouri with temps in the upper 90's does not result in high oil temps is there any reason to change? |
Hi. I'm sure you realize this but the primary use of the motor oil is its need to lubricate the many moving parts.
What is unique is the vw engine's oil cooler circuit which you have identified.
The oil viscosity is chosen to meet the engines need for a specific oil pressure for protection.
VW has made it clear in the Without Guesswork what they expect the lubrication system to produce for oil pressure. Its test was at 160 degrees, 30wt oil, and 2500 rpm, the minimum oil pressure is 28 psi and the spec for new components is 42 psi.
Many respected folks here have suggested a rule of thumb of 10 psi per 1000 rpm's.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Frodge wrote: |
| So vr-1 and brad Penn are the only non-synthetic oils that can be used in a stock engine without doing any damage? |
For a "stock engine" as you stated there are plenty of oils available.
My favorite, for many reasons, are the diesel oils. For the past 10-15 years I have used the diesel spec, which is dual rated, in 30 wt, 40 wt, 10w-30, and 15w-40.
For those shunned by this, Boron is an additive used as an anti-wear additive when ZDDP has been reduced. Chevron is a big endorser of this additive use.
I believe many of the Pennzoil oils are good. Quaker State "Defy" is respected here by some. Many of the High Mileage oils should be good.
Bill |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frodge
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Dump
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| I run my 1600sp mostly in summer. What do yo suggest for 40 weight? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WhirledTraveller
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Frodge wrote: |
| So vr-1 and brad Penn are the only non-synthetic oils that can be used in a stock engine without doing any damage? |
They are both good choices but since the news about ZDDP and flat tappet cams broke (10 years ago?) other manufacturers have stepped up with "high zinc" oils suitable for classic cars. Amsoil, Royal Purple, Lucas, etc. etc.
For "available" oils from your local store, VR1 is a good bet. So is Castrol Syntec 5w-50 (synthetic, obviously).
In general, oils sold for passenger cars with a 50W rating are a lot more likely to contain high levels of zinc than other weights. This is because the SAE specifications no longer allow high zinc in 40W and below. And racing oils without SAE ratings may or may not contain the detergents necessary for normal use, so tread cautiously with "race" oils even if they advertise high zinc. Some race oils are formulated to be changed after each day's racing.
_________________
1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vugbug68
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Frodge wrote: |
| So vr-1 and brad Penn are the only non-synthetic oils that can be used in a stock engine without doing any damage? |
Well in my 10+ years of daily driving air-cooled vehicles I have never had a certain oil damage anything, I have never used Brad Penn or VR-1 either.
Maybe I've been lucky, I've read stories about damaged cams and lifters, I've torn apart engines with damage caused from lack of lubrication but never had a problem myself.
_________________
71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| vugbug68 wrote: |
| Frodge wrote: |
| So vr-1 and brad Penn are the only non-synthetic oils that can be used in a stock engine without doing any damage? |
Well in my 10+ years of daily driving air-cooled vehicles I have never had a certain oil damage anything, I have never used Brad Penn or VR-1 either.
Maybe I've been lucky, I've read stories about damaged cams and lifters, I've torn apart engines with damage caused from lack of lubrication but never had a problem myself. |
Well, what do you use that seems to be successful for your needs?
Since you have a Corvair have you ever heard of this guy? Richard Widman
https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&...PCaueHPyXs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vugbug68
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
I've never read Richards Corvair before, good info. I usually use Chevron Delo 10-30 synthetic blend in the Corvair, I've been daily driving it lately while I do some work on my Bug. I rebuilt the engine in the Corvair in 2010 and its been super reliable, other than clean out the carbs and replace the points, I really haven't touched it.
I used to only use regular Rotella 15-40 in my bugs, I bought the 5 gal container at Wal-mart for like $60, lately I've been using Delo 5-40 synthetic, pretty much all year round, but I've also used Mobil 1 synthetic of various weights depending on my oil psi and oil temp and what the particular engine liked. I used regular shell non-Rotella for a while too with good results.
_________________
71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BillingsDave
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Billings Missouri
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| BillingsDave wrote: |
| Thanks for the replies so far and I'm looking forward to reading more. I did read the entire thread with the diagrams etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like all the tests were done using 10w30 and the problems began because of high pressure when useing a 30mm oil pump. I would have liked to have seen the results using a heavier weight oil and correct size pump, but of course the tests were done back in 1979. So if running 20w50 here in Missouri with temps in the upper 90's does not result in high oil temps is there any reason to change? |
Today checked the oil temp for the first time. Not a severe test but got the engine good and hot on a day in the upper 80's. Used two different temperature probes to check the oil temp using the dip stick tube. Both returned 175°. Again, I know these were not taken on a day in the upper 90's after hours of highway driving but no evidence of overheating so far. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
In general, oils sold for passenger cars with a 50W rating are a lot more likely to contain high levels of zinc than other weights. This is because the SAE specifications no longer allow high zinc in 40W and below. And racing oils without SAE ratings may or may not contain the detergents necessary for normal use, so tread cautiously with "race" oils even if they advertise high zinc. Some race oils are formulated to be changed after each day's racing. |
Unless things have changed the reduced phosphorus specifications only apply to 10w30 and thinner oils unless the oil is rated as resource conserving. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
