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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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 Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
In general, oils sold for passenger cars with a 50W rating are a lot more likely to contain high levels of zinc than other weights. This is because the SAE specifications no longer allow high zinc in 40W and below. And racing oils without SAE ratings may or may not contain the detergents necessary for normal use, so tread cautiously with "race" oils even if they advertise high zinc. Some race oils are formulated to be changed after each day's racing. |
Unless things have changed the reduced phosphorus specifications only apply to 10w30 and thinner oils unless the oil is rated as resource conserving. |
And while your statement is true so many people are referred to the usage of the 10w-30 oil and may not know that this oil, as well the oils with the API star symbol, is subject to the reduction in anti-wear additives. |
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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so we should just put 75-90 gear oil in our engines? it must have lotsa zinc.  for some stupid reason a lot of vw owners think thier vw needs and or requires racing oil. oh well you cant fix stupid. there are cheep on the shelf oils with zinc.and in thinner weights too. but....you cant fix stupid. |
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WhirledTraveller
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Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
In general, oils sold for passenger cars with a 50W rating are a lot more likely to contain high levels of zinc than other weights. This is because the SAE specifications no longer allow high zinc in 40W and below. And racing oils without SAE ratings may or may not contain the detergents necessary for normal use, so tread cautiously with "race" oils even if they advertise high zinc. Some race oils are formulated to be changed after each day's racing. |
Unless things have changed the reduced phosphorus specifications only apply to 10w30 and thinner oils unless the oil is rated as resource conserving. |
This is true, but looking at most manufacturers spec sheets they seem to be relegating the high zinc to the 50w oils and specifically marketing them for classic cars. Example, Mobil1 10w40 high mileage is 800/900 phosphorous/zinc, same as the 30w. Whereas Mobile1 15w50 is 1100/1300.
For Castrol, their Edge 5w50 is specifically marketed as offering protection for older engines and independent analysis shows about 1100/1300 as well. Their 10w40 products AFAIK is not marketed as offering protection for older engines and oil analysis shows low phosphorous and zinc (but they do have Boron... which may be just as good... but maybe not)
Those, and maybe Valvoline VR1 "race oil", and maybe motorcycle oils, are likely to be the only oils that are commonly available at a local automotive parts store that have the elevated zinc. Everything else, like Brad Penn, is going to be mail order.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
In general, oils sold for passenger cars with a 50W rating are a lot more likely to contain high levels of zinc than other weights. This is because the SAE specifications no longer allow high zinc in 40W and below. And racing oils without SAE ratings may or may not contain the detergents necessary for normal use, so tread cautiously with "race" oils even if they advertise high zinc. Some race oils are formulated to be changed after each day's racing. |
Unless things have changed the reduced phosphorus specifications only apply to 10w30 and thinner oils unless the oil is rated as resource conserving. |
This is true, but looking at most manufacturers spec sheets they seem to be relegating the high zinc to the 50w oils and specifically marketing them for classic cars. Example, Mobil1 10w40 high mileage is 800/900 phosphorous/zinc, same as the 30w. Whereas Mobile1 15w50 is 1100/1300.
For Castrol, their Edge 5w50 is specifically marketed as offering protection for older engines and independent analysis shows about 1100/1300 as well. Their 10w40 products AFAIK is not marketed as offering protection for older engines and oil analysis shows low phosphorous and zinc (but they do have Boron... which may be just as good... but maybe not)
Those, and maybe Valvoline VR1 "race oil", and maybe motorcycle oils, are likely to be the only oils that are commonly available at a local automotive parts store that have the elevated zinc. Everything else, like Brad Penn, is going to be mail order. |
Yes, but Mobil 1 5w40 Turbo Diesel oil still has about the same amount of phosphorus as the 15w-50 and is readily available. Pretty recently it was also just about the cheapest oil on the shelf at our local Walmart. Not surprisingly it sold out quickly.
I also don't think high ZDDP is as important today as it was 10 years back as oil manufacturers have come up with other antiwear additives for their SN rated oils.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I still get my 5-20 zink fix at wallmart. or do i now have to mail order walmart so they deliver it to my car when i pull up?  |
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WhirledTraveller
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Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Yes, but Mobil 1 5w40 Turbo Diesel oil still has about the same amount of phosphorus as the 15w-50 and is readily available. Pretty recently it was also just about the cheapest oil on the shelf at our local Walmart. Not surprisingly it sold out quickly.
I also don't think high ZDDP is as important today as it was 10 years back as oil manufacturers have come up with other antiwear additives for their SN rated oils.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf |
I've resisted using the diesel oils because I've read that the diesel oil's aggressive detergent package is potentially hazardous to a gasoline engine's ring seal.
I suspect you are probably right about ZDDP being less important nowadays with different anti-scuffing additive packages. I also suspect it's most important on break-in, not as much for a motor well worn-in. But, I'm not willing to be the one testing additives, I'd prefer to stick with the stuff I know won't flatten my cam... I'm also against stuff like "ZDDP plus" and "STP" because I believe that the oil manufacturers are creating a careful balance of additives to meet the various requirements of engine oil... and playing at molecular chemist with various additions you really don't know what side-effects you are causing. So my go-to choice would be oil from a reputable brand that is formulated for gasoline engines with a high phosphorous content.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
Yes, but Mobil 1 5w40 Turbo Diesel oil still has about the same amount of phosphorus as the 15w-50 and is readily available. Pretty recently it was also just about the cheapest oil on the shelf at our local Walmart. Not surprisingly it sold out quickly.
I also don't think high ZDDP is as important today as it was 10 years back as oil manufacturers have come up with other antiwear additives for their SN rated oils.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf |
I've resisted using the diesel oils because I've read that the diesel oil's aggressive detergent package is potentially hazardous to a gasoline engine's ring seal.
I suspect you are probably right about ZDDP being less important nowadays with different anti-scuffing additive packages. I also suspect it's most important on break-in, not as much for a motor well worn-in. But, I'm not willing to be the one testing additives, I'd prefer to stick with the stuff I know won't flatten my cam... I'm also against stuff like "ZDDP plus" and "STP" because I believe that the oil manufacturers are creating a careful balance of additives to meet the various requirements of engine oil... and playing at molecular chemist with various additions you really don't know what side-effects you are causing. So my go-to choice would be oil from a reputable brand that is formulated for gasoline engines with a high phosphorous content. |
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Oil carries an SN rating so is 100% suitable for use in a gasoline engine. On my old 1800 which made it 270K miles every one of those miles was run with oils that had both an "S" rating and a "C" rating. At 270K miles the engine went down because the heads which with around 400K on them finally cracked and a seat fell out, while the rings, pistons, and cylinders looked very good and with the exception of the rings may well be run again some day. |
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camfella04
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Joined: November 07, 2016
Posts: 85
Location: Ottawa Canada
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SBD
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Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I just had a look at their website. I don't like the following statement.
"1600 parts per million, of ZDDP, per liter."
It was either written by an uneducated person or somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about.
_________________
"Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"
| mark tucker wrote: |
| I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| SBD wrote: |
I just had a look at their website. I don't like the following statement.
"1600 parts per million, of ZDDP, per liter."
It was either written by an uneducated person or somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about. |
It's just a typo. Oil is sold in litre containers in Canada, and whoever wrote up the website probably meant to say that the product contains 1600 pmm and added per litre needlessly.
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Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I am thinking of changing the kind of oil I am running in my 1971 Bus again. (Full Flow Oiling, filter, 26mm Schadek oil pump and Stock DP Oil Cooler).
Rebuilt 2013 I went with Castrol 5W30 and ran it for 3 years then switched to Mobil 1 0W40 but on review of the data I see that it's hurting my gas mileage a bit. Seeing a lot of 14-15 MPG gas ups around town in the winter with the Mobil 1 was more like 17-20 before with the castrol. The engine has broken in nicely though and no smoke ever with the Mobil 1 0w40 No longer using any ZDDP with oil changes.
Any thoughts on a good economic oil for Flat Tappet to run so I can keep it changed often? Could the 40 on the 0W40 be the cause of the lower gas mileage?
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15308
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Thinner oil will get better MPG than thicker oil.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
I am thinking of changing the kind of oil I am running in my 1971 Bus again. (Full Flow Oiling, filter, 26mm Schadek oil pump and Stock DP Oil Cooler).
Rebuilt 2013 I went with Castrol 5W30 and ran it for 3 years then switched to Mobil 1 0W40 but on review of the data I see that it's hurting my gas mileage a bit. Seeing a lot of 14-15 MPG gas ups around town in the winter with the Mobil 1 was more like 17-20 before with the castrol. The engine has broken in nicely though and no smoke ever with the Mobil 1 0w40 No longer using any ZDDP with oil changes.
Any thoughts on a good economic oil for Flat Tappet to run so I can keep it changed often? Could the 40 on the 0W40 be the cause of the lower gas mileage? |
I would be surprised if you would see a 1/10 of a mile per gallon decrease in fuel consumption by going from a 5w30 to a 5w40, while going from a 5w30 to a 0w40 might well up your mileage. |
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SBD
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
I am thinking of changing the kind of oil I am running in my 1971 Bus again. (Full Flow Oiling, filter, 26mm Schadek oil pump and Stock DP Oil Cooler).
Rebuilt 2013 I went with Castrol 5W30 and ran it for 3 years then switched to Mobil 1 0W40 but on review of the data I see that it's hurting my gas mileage a bit. Seeing a lot of 14-15 MPG gas ups around town in the winter with the Mobil 1 was more like 17-20 before with the castrol. The engine has broken in nicely though and no smoke ever with the Mobil 1 0w40 No longer using any ZDDP with oil changes.
Any thoughts on a good economic oil for Flat Tappet to run so I can keep it changed often? Could the 40 on the 0W40 be the cause of the lower gas mileage? |
I would be surprised if you would see a 1/10 of a mile per gallon decrease in fuel consumption by going from a 5w30 to a 5w40, while going from a 5w30 to a 0w40 might well up your mileage. |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Thinner oil will get better MPG than thicker oil. |
So, are you guys saying that what Danwvw noticed with his vehicle didn't really happen? 
Or could the reduced mileage be due to the fact that he's no longer using a ZDDP additive? Does it reduce friction that much? 
_________________
"Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"
| mark tucker wrote: |
| I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| SBD wrote: |
So, are you guys saying that what Danwvw noticed with his vehicle didn't really happen? |
I doubt seriously that a one step change in oil weight could cause a 15% increase in fuel usage. Just not likely to happen. For anything about the oil (viscousity, ZDDP, etc) to be causing that kind of drag on the engine the oil would have to be getting smoking hot as a result.
When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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My current working theory is that the engine is running too cool and before when I switched to the 0W40 Mobil 1 full synthetic motor oil it made it run even cooler.
I need to make some adjustments to the fan shroud thermostat flaps to get them to completely close when the engine is cold. They don't. The problem is there is no more adjustment there. I may have the wrong thermostat bracket on it or something. I Will try fixing this first before going to a new oil.
What about running Thicker oil to raise the engine temperature? Perhaps Mobil 1 15W50 SN motor oil with 1300 PPM Zinc?
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15308
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I remember reading one of the off-road racers did a lot of dyno testing on their race engines and saw the most horsepower when the oil was in the 215* range.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
The high shear rate viscosity of a 5w30 and 0w40 are essentially the same and even the difference in low shear viscosity aren't all that much different.
http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:10 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
The high shear rate viscosity of a 5w30 and 0w40 are essentially the same and even the difference in low shear viscosity aren't all that much different.
http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ |
The high shear rate in the link you posted is at 150°C or just a bit over 300°F, well above normal operating oil temp. The measurement at 100°C or 212°F is much more in line with normal operating oil temps, and the data clearly shows the -40 oil being thicker than the -30 oil. Granted it isn't a whole lot of difference, but the -40 is thicker nonetheless, so I stand by my earlier statement.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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