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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
The high shear rate viscosity of a 5w30 and 0w40 are essentially the same and even the difference in low shear viscosity aren't all that much different.
http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ |
The high shear rate in the link you posted is at 150°C or just a bit over 300°F, well above normal operating oil temp. The measurement at 100°C or 212°F is much more in line with normal operating oil temps, and the data clearly shows the -40 oil being thicker than the -30 oil. Granted it isn't a whole lot of difference, but the -40 is thicker nonetheless, so I stand by my earlier statement. |
What is the temperature of the oil as it is being sheared in the bearings? I don't know exactly, but I do know that it is above the temperature of the oil in the galleys. It also doesn't have to get all the way up to 150°C before there is very little difference in the high speed viscosity.
Also in an aircooled VW engine the lubrication system is designed to increase the oil temperature so that the oil viscosity drops to where the engine wants it to be. If for a given engine a 30wt oil will run at 100°C, a 40wt oil may run at 110°C and thus have a very similar viscosity. (note that I haven't found this applies super well to multigrade oils.)
On the lower temperature end of the scale a 0W- oil is always going to thinner than a 5W- oil so less energy will always be needed to run the engine with 0W oil.
Many like myself don't drive far enough on a typical trip to get their oil all that hot either. Most of my trips only include a 6 mile run at highway speeds and even on the return trip that has a 800' vertical climb the oil almost never gets close to 100°, more often maxing out at around 80-90°C at which temperature a 0w40 oil may be little or no thicker than a 5w30 oil. On the down hill trip the oil doesn't even get that hot and the average temp is less still. |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
The high shear rate viscosity of a 5w30 and 0w40 are essentially the same and even the difference in low shear viscosity aren't all that much different.
http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ |
The high shear rate in the link you posted is at 150°C or just a bit over 300°F, well above normal operating oil temp. The measurement at 100°C or 212°F is much more in line with normal operating oil temps, and the data clearly shows the -40 oil being thicker than the -30 oil. Granted it isn't a whole lot of difference, but the -40 is thicker nonetheless, so I stand by my earlier statement. |
What is the temperature of the oil as it is being sheared in the bearings? I don't know exactly, but I do know that it is above the temperature of the oil in the galleys. It also doesn't have to get all the way up to 150°C before there is very little difference in the high speed viscosity.
Also in an aircooled VW engine the lubrication system is designed to increase the oil temperature so that the oil viscosity drops to where the engine wants it to be. If for a given engine a 30wt oil will run at 100°C, a 40wt oil may run at 110°C and thus have a very similar viscosity. (note that I haven't found this applies super well to multigrade oils.)
On the lower temperature end of the scale a 0W- oil is always going to thinner than a 5W- oil so less energy will always be needed to run the engine with 0W oil.
Many like myself don't drive far enough on a typical trip to get their oil all that hot either. Most of my trips only include a 6 mile run at highway speeds and even on the return trip that has a 800' vertical climb the oil almost never gets close to 100°, more often maxing out at around 80-90°C at which temperature a 0w40 oil may be little or no thicker than a 5w30 oil. On the down hill trip the oil doesn't even get that hot and the average temp is less still. |
Congratulations, you've now come full circle in your argument to now support exactly what I was saying in my very first response to you. 
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Also in an aircooled VW engine the lubrication system is designed to increase the oil temperature so that the oil viscosity drops to where the engine wants it to be. If for a given engine a 30wt oil will run at 100°C, a 40wt oil may run at 110°C and thus have a very similar viscosity. |
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I would say that those two statements are quite contradictory. |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| mukluk wrote: |
| If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Also in an aircooled VW engine the lubrication system is designed to increase the oil temperature so that the oil viscosity drops to where the engine wants it to be. If for a given engine a 30wt oil will run at 100°C, a 40wt oil may run at 110°C and thus have a very similar viscosity. |
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I would say that those two statements are quite contradictory. |
That's because you've just edited out your own statement that supports mine.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Many like myself don't drive far enough on a typical trip to get their oil all that hot either. Most of my trips only include a 6 mile run at highway speeds and even on the return trip that has a 800' vertical climb the oil almost never gets close to 100°, more often maxing out at around 80-90°C at which temperature a 0w40 oil may be little or no thicker than a 5w30 oil. On the down hill trip the oil doesn't even get that hot and the average temp is less still. |
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| mukluk wrote: |
| If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Also in an aircooled VW engine the lubrication system is designed to increase the oil temperature so that the oil viscosity drops to where the engine wants it to be. If for a given engine a 30wt oil will run at 100°C, a 40wt oil may run at 110°C and thus have a very similar viscosity. |
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I would say that those two statements are quite contradictory. |
That's because you've just edited out your own statement that supports mine.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Many like myself don't drive far enough on a typical trip to get their oil all that hot either. Most of my trips only include a 6 mile run at highway speeds and even on the return trip that has a 800' vertical climb the oil almost never gets close to 100°, more often maxing out at around 80-90°C at which temperature a 0w40 oil may be little or no thicker than a 5w30 oil. On the down hill trip the oil doesn't even get that hot and the average temp is less still. |
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Which is what I said to start with and you took exception to, oil at 80-90°C is still measurably thicker than oil at 100°C so the low temperature characteristics of an oil are still having some effect. On a viscosity/temperature graph the lines for the two oils will cross at about these temperatures as the viscosity will be about the same for both oils:
| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the oil is cold and viscous and thus adding the most drag to the engine a 0W oil is going to offer less resistance than a 5W oil. So as I indicated before a 0W40 oil might actually give better gas mileage than a 5W30 oil. |
If the oil stayed rather cold during operation, yes, but when the engine oil is heated up anywhere near operating temp the 0W40 will be thicker than the 5W30. |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Which is what I said to start with and you took exception to, oil at 80-90°C is still measurably thicker than oil at 100°C so the low temperature characteristics of an oil are still having some effect. On a viscosity/temperature graph the lines for the two oils will cross at about these temperatures as the viscosity will be about the same for both oils: |
So now you're contradicting yourself and saying at 80-90°C the low temperature characteristics are still having an effect, but they're also about the same viscosity. Which is it? Are they the same or do they change to suit your argument at the moment?
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Which is what I said to start with and you took exception to, oil at 80-90°C is still measurably thicker than oil at 100°C so the low temperature characteristics of an oil are still having some effect. On a viscosity/temperature graph the lines for the two oils will cross at about these temperatures as the viscosity will be about the same for both oils: |
So now you're contradicting yourself and saying at 80-90°C the low temperature characteristics are still having an effect, but they're also about the same viscosity. Which is it? Are they the same or do they change to suit your argument at the moment? |
No contradiction at all, read and understand the part about the viscosities being the same where the lines cross on the graph. The lines don't cross at 40°C or at 100°C but at somewhere between those to points, and for all the oils I can remember seeing graphs for the line cross towards the upper end of that range. I stand by what I said. |
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Danwvw
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Upon inspection of the thermostat I found in fact the bellows was bad. Stuck just a little open. Installed a good used one I had. Drove the bus up the Mountain we have close here near my home. It's about a 1200' climb over about 3 miles. (2nd and 3rd gears) (Outside Air Temp about 60').
With the new thermostat by the time I reach the top of the mountain, it's getting the engine case at the hottest place I can find on it up to 167' F The thermostat is full open and IR temp readings on the bellows is about 170'F.
Drive back down the mountain and the bellows closes (Measures 145') but the case temp is still about the same.
I think the thermostat is working correctly now. This was probably what was causing the lower MPG's.
Yeah, I't hard to see much difference between the 5W30 and 0W40 although the 0W40 does seem thicker all around. The 0W40 may conduct heat better but that should make the engine run a little hotter once heated up which should help MPG's. It just never get's hot enough here on the Oregon Coast to get the engine up to 215' F but probably would do that on a interstate highway at highway speeds if the Outside air temp was over 75'.
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
I knew a guy back in the 80's that took Amsoil (I think the first Amsoil Synthetic was a blend..) and some Mobil One and some regular non synthetic oil and painted them onto some pistons with rings and put them in his oven and followed what happened to each by 350' The Amsoil crusted up on the rings the Mobil One ran off but was ok. regular oil ran off and crusted up on the pan. The Mobil one did not vaporize even at 400' F.
I don't know though Mobil one is just too expensive to change every 3000 miles and in an air cooled engine it's good to get oil changed every 3000 as it is exposed to pretty high temperatures in the heads.
I have tried Synthetic Oils twice and both times it resulted in harding of my oil seals and leaking out. It started a major oil leaks in my 944 engine and in my wife's Toyota but seal softener and going back to regular oil repaired them, I did eventually wind up having the Porsche seals replaced. |
That's funny-- just now, I typed in Google search: "Are there times where using conventional motor oil is better than synthetic?" The whole reason I searched this in the first place was because, ever since I've owned my 380,000 mile Nissan Maxima, I've used Mobil Super High Mileage "premium conventional" oil because I can get it for $15 for a 5 quart jug at WalMart, and the car has always run nice and smooth. But the last oil change, I just got lazy and took it to the shop, and I had them put Castrol Syntec in at a VERY premium price ($69.99) just to see if it made the engine run smoother- but it seems to have had the exact OPPOSITE effect- there is a bit of a "moan" from the engine when accelerating and a small vibration that wasn't there before.
I figured there would be at least a couple of hits for an article arguing benefits of conventional over synthetic in at least SOME situation--but guess what? NOT ONE. That's right, every single hit that came up was clamoring about synthetic over conventional, and how conventional ruins the environment, and how you're wasting your money with conventional, blah blah blah. Even the Consumer Reports article that popped up argued for synthetic, not giving one benefit to conventional except cost savings (but then they negated that argument by saying synthetics don't have to be changed as much so it's a "wash.") 
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VWBobby
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Posts: 1537
Location: Central Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I'm going to see what kind of response this gets since its a rather old topic.....
What kind of oil is everyone using for their High Performance VW engine?
How many miles have you been using that oil?
What oil change intervals?
Not stock engines, not babied engines. Engines that are hard on oil and parts, and driven hard at times, but maintained well.
I am using Mobil 1 15W50 in my 2270 Type 4, due to its 1200/1300 PPM phosphorous/zinc content. This engine has only 600 miles.
Considering going to Rotella T6 5W40 for winter or M1 0W40. |
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fivelugshortaxle
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Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| VWBobby wrote: |
I'm going to see what kind of response this gets since its a rather old topic.....
What kind of oil is everyone using for their High Performance VW engine?
How many miles have you been using that oil?
What oil change intervals?
Not stock engines, not babied engines. Engines that are hard on oil and parts, and driven hard at times, but maintained well.
I am using Mobil 1 15W50 in my 2270 Type 4, due to its 1200/1300 PPM phosphorous/zinc content. This engine has only 600 miles.
Considering going to Rotella T6 5W40 for winter or M1 0W40. |
Amsoil Z Rod...better zinc content than Mobil 1.
Oil changed every 2500 miles......usually doesn't need it but I do it anyway. Oil is cheap.
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Frank Bassman
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Shell Rotella 15-40 synthetic and MANN oil filter.
I am aware it doesn't have the old Rotella formulation and I don't really care. 40k miles running strong and cool in south Florida in a mild stroker. Changed every 2500-3k miles. Works for ME!
-Frank |
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Lingwendil
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flatfour
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Posts: 688
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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This may have been posted but I couldn't find anything on it. Is the New Penn Grade and old Brad Penn the same formula? Looking at their website I don't see much mentioned about zinc like they did before. I have used Brad Penn for over 10 years and like it but if its different I may switch over to Amzoil Z-Rod or maybe the Lucas. The Lucas Hot rod and classic oil has good reviews also and has good zinc content and price seems reasonable. Anyone used that?
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VWBobby
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Location: Central Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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The Amsoil Signature Series oil tests extremely high in PSI wear testing, #1 unmodified oil:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
If I could find it locally or reasonably priced, I would probably go Amsoil.
I chose to go with VR1 20w50 conventional this time. Mostly because I'm still under break-in, and its available locally cheap. It exceeds 100K PSI in testing and has over 1400 ppm zinc. The Rotella T6 changed formulas again and lost a little zddp content (not much, but less than 1100). The old T6 formula ranks very low at #180 and 67K PSI, but the new formula T6 claims much better protection if you believe the advertising.
Mobil 1 0w40 is near 1000ppm on zinc, so its a little low but ranks pretty high in the PSI testing above (#5!!). A little thin for most older aircooled engines and climates.
Unfortunately Mobil 1 15w50 ranks fairly low on the PSI testing (#168!) 70K PSI, but does have the 1200ppm zinc/1300ppm phos that is helpful.
Brad Penn oils ranks pretty low (#165) , despite some people swearing by it.
Others swear at it:
"The rules and the combination of parts, were causing him to experience repeated cam failures while using high zinc, semi-synthetic 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 motor oil. Lab Report Data from testing performed by Professional Lab, “ALS Tribology” in Sparks, Nevada, showed that this oil contains 1557 ppm zinc, 1651 ppm phosphorus, and 3 ppm moly. In spite of this being a high zinc oil, that most folks would “assume” provides excellent wear protection, he experienced wiped lobe cam failure about every 22 to 25 races."
Some Lucas Oils have very high zinc content, so high that it has actually failed a few corrosion tests on their gear oils. The copper bar corrosion test was heavily discolored compared to almost all gear oils tested, and ranked pretty low on 540 RAT's testing, so I don't trust it.... Anything over 1500 can cause damage.
VERY hard to chose a good oil these days that doesn't cost $10/quart and requires mail order or hunting locally... |
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Howard 111
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Can't say much about most of the oils they list, but for STP additives, either the red or the blue bottle, they have so little ZDDP in them using them will lower the amount of ZDDP in the oil not raise it. Things may have changed on this, but I doubt it as STP doesn't want to start having to buy new cats for people.
If other oils and additives on the list didn't get checked any better than the STP, then take their info with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Wildthings on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected]
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Good oil is a lot cheaper than replacing camshafts.
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kombivan
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:54 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Since 1990 I use Valvolone xld was plus but is now premiun its a 20-50. Oil is thinner than it was 40 years ago I have run it in Beetles, kombi's, jaguar, fords, holdens, subaru's, Toyota camray, super bug Vanagons and it has never let me down I change my oil between 3,000 and 5,000 and I have not blown and engine by wear or abuse in all those years I may have purchased some with bad engines only to rebuild then for my use my current T3/vanagon one of 2 has done 19 years since its last rebuild and its a regularly driven car along with my other T3 Vanagon Van (6 years since rebuild when purchased). I went through engines regularly before I started using valvoline (every 1-2 years) and having such a good run with this oil I am just not interested in reading this thread as I am using a great oil. If I have a problem with sticking hydraulic lifters I add either Wynns Extend or Nulon engine treatment (100mm only) not the hydraulic lifter stuff and that is the only issue I get when the oil needs changing between 4,000 and 6,000k's. In Us it would be 2000 mile engine oil change and 3,000-4,000 miles before lifters start sticking which is common for a boxer engine. I know your going to say you need a thinner oil to assist with cooling this is a thinner oil than what was produced in the 60's and 70's and the quality of ingredients is far more advanced than it was 50 years ago. It was John Laws that put me onto valvoline I'm glad I listened even though he was paid to say what he said. |
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SBD
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Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| kombivan wrote: |
| Since 1990 I use Valvolone xld was plus but is now premiun its a 20-50. Oil is thinner than it was 40 years ago I have run it in Beetles, kombi's, jaguar, fords, holdens, subaru's, Toyota camray, super bug Vanagons and it has never let me down I change my oil between 3,000 and 5,000 and I have not blown and engine by wear or abuse in all those years I may have purchased some with bad engines only to rebuild then for my use my current T3/vanagon one of 2 has done 19 years since its last rebuild and its a regularly driven car along with my other T3 Vanagon Van (6 years since rebuild when purchased). I went through engines regularly before I started using valvoline (every 1-2 years) and having such a good run with this oil I am just not interested in reading this thread as I am using a great oil. If I have a problem with sticking hydraulic lifters I add either Wynns Extend or Nulon engine treatment (100mm only) not the hydraulic lifter stuff and that is the only issue I get when the oil needs changing between 4,000 and 6,000k's. In Us it would be 2000 mile engine oil change and 3,000-4,000 miles before lifters start sticking which is common for a boxer engine. I know your going to say you need a thinner oil to assist with cooling this is a thinner oil than what was produced in the 60's and 70's and the quality of ingredients is far more advanced than it was 50 years ago. It was John Laws that put me onto valvoline I'm glad I listened even though he was paid to say what he said. |
 Punctuation, dude! I quit trying to read/understand this about halfway through.
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