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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3834 Location: San Jose, CA
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SlowJoe21 Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2016 Posts: 1 Location: SOCAL
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Ok so here is my question after sorting through a bunch of arguments and real-life scenarios in this thread. I live in southern CA so here are my thoughts.
Best oils are:
VR1 racing oil - Not available for purchase in CA
Brad Penn oil - Mixed reviews
Shell Rotella diesel/gas oil - Best option for us CA people
My question IS...is it possible switch from a conventional oil (say Mobile 10w30 off the shelf from previous owner) to Shell Rotella diesel oil without harming my engine?? I'm running a stock 1600SP in a '71 bus.
Please do not tell me to just use a 10w30 oil when I know for a fact that newer oils are not compatible with our flat tappet engines. Any advice would be appreciated. |
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Olli from NJ Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 301 Location: Milton,DE
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60ragtop Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006 Posts: 7800 Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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SlowJoe21 wrote: |
My question IS...is it possible switch from a conventional oil (say Mobile 10w30 off the shelf from previous owner) to Shell Rotella diesel oil without harming my engine?? I'm running a stock 1600SP in a '71 bus.
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No harm to my stock 36 HP and 1600 SP engines in my bugs. _________________ Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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sb001 wrote: |
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15298 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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The regulations have changed in just the last 3 years. You should no longer use any Diesel oils in gasoline engines no matter what the label says. Because of the different sulfers and pollutants involved with Diesel engines, the additive packages (detergents & anti-foaming agents) are not correct and are too strong for gas engines. There are now many people reporting 15-20* hotter oil temps when using Diesel oils. Do your own research. Many of the "High Mileage" oils have a higher content of ZDDP.
Wildthang I refuse to get into a bitch fight with you over this. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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McGuirk Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2004 Posts: 114
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Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Quote: |
VR1 racing oil - Not available for purchase in CA |
VR1 is still available in California - I just ordered some from my local NAPA last month. What happened is that two years ago California changed the labeling requirements for oil and VR1 was unavailable until the new packaging was printed. Meanwhile a few "VR1 BANNED IN CALIFORNIA!!!!" posts popped up in multiple vintage car forums before people calmed down and actually asked someone at Valvoline.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/VCA205 |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
The regulations have changed in just the last 3 years. You should no longer use any Diesel oils in gasoline engines no matter what the label says. Because of the different sulfers and pollutants involved with Diesel engines, the additive packages (detergents & anti-foaming agents) are not correct and are too strong for gas engines. There are now many people reporting 15-20* hotter oil temps when using Diesel oils. Do your own research. Many of the "High Mileage" oils have a higher content of ZDDP.
Wildthang I refuse to get into a bitch fight with you over this. |
I am still waiting for you to back up your claims and thus far you have failed to do this. |
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Dfasty Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2005 Posts: 528 Location: north bay,ca.
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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castrol has a few products that are rated at SJ thru SN _________________ 70 fastback automatic 06 invader |
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lutorm Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2018 Posts: 1 Location: The island of Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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So after reading through 200+ pages I didn't see these two points addressed:
1. I've been told that synthetic oil apparently is no good if you're running leaded gasoline, because it's worse at keeping lead deposits in suspension than conventional oil. (Mobil pulled their aviation oil, AV-1, from the market because of this.)
2. One advantage of single-grade oils over multi-weight ones is that the same quality that makes them bad for cold starts also makes them better at corrosion protection since they stay on parts for longer. If you have an engine that sits for long periods of time in a corrosion-prone climate this might outweigh the fact that you get worse lubrication at startup.
Having just rebuilt a 2180cc dual-relief Type 1 engine that had severe internal corrosion (Hawaii's climate is brutal unless you're parked in a climate-controlled space) I'm considering single-grade oil just because of this.
What oil would people think would be appropriate for my engine? It runs leaded gas (100 octane) and will run for extended periods (15+ minutes) at wide open throttle around 3000-3500 RPM at ambient temperatures of 70-90 F. The engine has all the HVX mods done. Since I just put it together, I know the rod clearances are on the tight side, like 0.0015-0.002".
And, yes, it's in an airplane. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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lutorm wrote: |
So after reading through 200+ pages I didn't see these two points addressed:
1. I've been told that synthetic oil apparently is no good if you're running leaded gasoline, because it's worse at keeping lead deposits in suspension than conventional oil. (Mobil pulled their aviation oil, AV-1, from the market because of this.)
2. One advantage of single-grade oils over multi-weight ones is that the same quality that makes them bad for cold starts also makes them better at corrosion protection since they stay on parts for longer. If you have an engine that sits for long periods of time in a corrosion-prone climate this might outweigh the fact that you get worse lubrication at startup.
Having just rebuilt a 2180cc dual-relief Type 1 engine that had severe internal corrosion (Hawaii's climate is brutal unless you're parked in a climate-controlled space) I'm considering single-grade oil just because of this.
What oil would people think would be appropriate for my engine? It runs leaded gas (100 octane) and will run for extended periods (15+ minutes) at wide open throttle around 3000-3500 RPM at ambient temperatures of 70-90 F. The engine has all the HVX mods done. Since I just put it together, I know the rod clearances are on the tight side, like 0.0015-0.002".
And, yes, it's in an airplane. |
Many modern straight weight oils aren't that much different from synthetic oils, both being produced from highly refined base stock. I don't know why a synthetic would be that much worse as far as leaded gas than a dino oil as again most are just very highly refined oils, Mobile 1, a Group 4 oil, being the one main exception.
You could look at your search two ways, find the thinnest oil that will give you sufficient oil pressure, or the thickest oil that doesn't cause heat problems. Don't get too hung up on the "a thick oil will not lubricate a cold engine BS". I have watched enough generator sets and other large industrial engines crank up and be under full load in just a few seconds after sitting for months to know this is largely an "internet" problem.
Many modern straight weight oils have a higher viscosity index than straight weights of yore. A modern 40wt oil may compare viscosity wise to a 20w40 or 15w40 of forty years ago, the higher viscosity index coming from more precise refining and not from additives. Valvoline has straight weight racing oils, while many straight weight oils are sold for use in older industrial engines, your choice might hinge on how much detergent you want in your oil.
I am glad not to have to deal with leaded gasoline in automotive engines, that stuff was a major engine killer, I don't believe most modern high output automotive engines would survive very long at all if they were run on leaded gas. Back in the sixties engines run on high lead fuels would begin to experience lubrication problems from blocked oil passages at around 20k miles and become junkers not too long afterwards. |
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11740 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Wild, since you’re intent on a single W, in your climate, I’d run straight 30W Valvoline VR Racing oil. During the hottest months, make it 40W.
I live in an area of California where the summer temperatures go for weeks on end at over 100 degrees F. I run VR Racing 10W30. I could run their 10W40, but my oil temperatures during my tests showed me that the thicker oil does not go to the stock cooler as quickly, due to the oil pressure and control valves not opening as quickly. The result: my 10W30 runs cooler than the 10W40. This testing was done with an expensive oil thermometer, made for VW air-cooled engines, not a kitchen thermometer. The tests were also done on days when the ambient temperatures were each approximately 95 degrees F.
And don’t be afraid of modern multi-grade oils. They really do thicken up, the hotter the engine gets. So, you may as well take advantage of the thinner start-up qualities of multi-grade oil.
Tim _________________ Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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turbotype1 Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005 Posts: 580 Location: seacoast
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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A long read with a ton of info about oil testing.... worth repeating the link.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Valvoline VR-1 10w-30 conventional for me _________________
117harv wrote: |
This new fad of get it the lowest, or run it with the worst looks, (patina) isn't cool, it's for the hey everyone look at me crowd, i'm driving a beat down ratty, unsafe, VW, how cool am I ???...your not....
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Pissing off the purists since 1997
Wanted: Boyd Motors plate frame
57 Turbo Oval Sliding rag
67 13 window delux walk-thru- now 21
64 all original for the misses
83 Sinka m-TDI diesel |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Linking to sites that does not not approve religious belief in ZDDP and Brad Penn products will get you nowhere! (On this forum anyway) _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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turbotype1 wrote: |
A long read with a ton of info about oil testing.... worth repeating the link.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Valvoline VR-1 10w-30 conventional for me |
When some says to ignore everyone else, maybe they are the one to be ignored. |
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turbotype1 Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005 Posts: 580 Location: seacoast
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Wildthings wrote: |
turbotype1 wrote: |
A long read with a ton of info about oil testing.... worth repeating the link.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Valvoline VR-1 10w-30 conventional for me |
When some says to ignore everyone else, maybe they are the one to be ignored. |
Maybe..... Maybe Not
A lot of info either way _________________
117harv wrote: |
This new fad of get it the lowest, or run it with the worst looks, (patina) isn't cool, it's for the hey everyone look at me crowd, i'm driving a beat down ratty, unsafe, VW, how cool am I ???...your not....
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Pissing off the purists since 1997
Wanted: Boyd Motors plate frame
57 Turbo Oval Sliding rag
67 13 window delux walk-thru- now 21
64 all original for the misses
83 Sinka m-TDI diesel |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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turbotype1 wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
turbotype1 wrote: |
A long read with a ton of info about oil testing.... worth repeating the link.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Valvoline VR-1 10w-30 conventional for me |
When some says to ignore everyone else, maybe they are the one to be ignored. |
Maybe..... Maybe Not
A lot of info either way |
I will agree that there is a lot of info, but will hit at one of his statements. His claim that you do 99% of your driving with your engine warmed up and that you should take it easy for 10-15 minutes until the engine is fully warm, this claim is well, preposterous. I just drove 1200 miles over a 48 hour period stopping over night twice and making one other stop of three hours, so including the initial startup, I had four cold starts on the trip. If I were to have taken it easy on the engine by limiting my speed to 45mph for 10 minutes each time, I would have driven 30 miles of this 120 mile trip at slow speeds while allowing my engine to warm up, this is more than 2 % of the time for this longish all highway trip. For most of my other driving my oil would never warm up to what he says is required, as most of my trips are less than 15 miles. In actuality on my aircooled my oil sump temps seldom get into what he claims is the normal range, typically they seldom are above 180°F. I would say that in most of my driving the oil in the sump spends a good 50% of the time below 160°F.
If the rest of his info is no more accurate than this easily disproven premise that your engine oil spends 99% of the time at 212-250°F, his info is worthless. |
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3327 Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Gotta love this Stickie _________________ "Albatross"! |
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turbotype1 Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005 Posts: 580 Location: seacoast
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Wildthings wrote: |
turbotype1 wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
turbotype1 wrote: |
A long read with a ton of info about oil testing.... worth repeating the link.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Valvoline VR-1 10w-30 conventional for me |
When some says to ignore everyone else, maybe they are the one to be ignored. |
Maybe..... Maybe Not
A lot of info either way |
I will agree that there is a lot of info, but will hit at one of his statements. His claim that you do 99% of your driving with your engine warmed up and that you should take it easy for 10-15 minutes until the engine is fully warm, this claim is well, preposterous. I just drove 1200 miles over a 48 hour period stopping over night twice and making one other stop of three hours, so including the initial startup, I had four cold starts on the trip. If I were to have taken it easy on the engine by limiting my speed to 45mph for 10 minutes each time, I would have driven 30 miles of this 120 mile trip at slow speeds while allowing my engine to warm up, this is more than 2 % of the time for this longish all highway trip. For most of my other driving my oil would never warm up to what he says is required, as most of my trips are less than 15 miles. In actuality on my aircooled my oil sump temps seldom get into what he claims is the normal range, typically they seldom are above 180°F. I would say that in most of my driving the oil in the sump spends a good 50% of the time below 160°F.
If the rest of his info is no more accurate than this easily disproven premise that your engine oil spends 99% of the time at 212-250°F, his info is worthless. |
Fascinating story.... Although, it is common knowledge that you don't go beat on your engine the minute it starts up. You should wait untill it's up to operating temp before.....
Wait..., Is that what he was saying after all? _________________
117harv wrote: |
This new fad of get it the lowest, or run it with the worst looks, (patina) isn't cool, it's for the hey everyone look at me crowd, i'm driving a beat down ratty, unsafe, VW, how cool am I ???...your not....
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Pissing off the purists since 1997
Wanted: Boyd Motors plate frame
57 Turbo Oval Sliding rag
67 13 window delux walk-thru- now 21
64 all original for the misses
83 Sinka m-TDI diesel |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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VW says to drive your engine moderately until the oil engine is warm. They define neither "moderate" nor "warm" Nor do they say that they want you to drive moderately because of the oil and not for some other reason such as the metallurgy of the engine. Someone in Alaska might keep his revs below 1/2 of factory red line until his oil is 20°F above the cold cranking temperature for his oil weight and feel he has met VW's requirements, while someone in California following the same instructions might baby his engine at an ambient that is over 100°F hotter.
Personally if I spend the night next to the road at 30°F and pull directly out on the highway when I wake, I will keep the revs below 2500-3000 as I go through the gears and before a mile is behind me an going to be running 65mph, feeling I have fully met VW requirements. I doubt that in 40+ years of driving ACVW I have even once waited until my oil was 212°+ to rev my engine to whatever speed I wanted. In a cold climate ACVW's have enough trouble with moisture building up in the oil so prolonging the "cold start" by warming the engine up more slowly seems counter productive.
I will let others worry about this latest fad of oil not being able to lubricate until it is above 180 or 212°F and will stick with the SAE's concern that cold starting (when the oil is <180°F) is hard on an engine due to moisture buildup in the oil and that one should warm their oil quickly to avoid moisture caused problems. |
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Wildthings wrote: |
VW says to drive your engine moderately until the oil engine is warm. They define neither "moderate" nor "warm" Nor do they say that they want you to drive moderately because of the oil and not for some other reason such as the metallurgy of the engine. Someone in Alaska might keep his revs below 1/2 of factory red line until his oil is 20°F above the cold cranking temperature for his oil weight and feel he has met VW's requirements, while someone in California following the same instructions might baby his engine at an ambient that is over 100°F hotter.
Personally if I spend the night next to the road at 30°F and pull directly out on the highway when I wake, I will keep the revs below 2500-3000 as I go through the gears and before a mile is behind me an going to be running 65mph, feeling I have fully met VW requirements. I doubt that in 40+ years of driving ACVW I have even once waited until my oil was 212°+ to rev my engine to whatever speed I wanted. In a cold climate ACVW's have enough trouble with moisture building up in the oil so prolonging the "cold start" by warming the engine up more slowly seems counter productive.
I will let others worry about this latest fad of oil not being able to lubricate until it is above 180 or 212°F and will stick with the SAE's concern that cold starting (when the oil is <180°F) is hard on an engine due to moisture buildup in the oil and that one should warm their oil quickly to avoid moisture caused problems. |
I know what moderate and warm is! Wow......how about "common sense" |
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