Pulling Winston's Fridge and the Rust Skirmish (Verbose!)

[msinabottle]

Well, I had long understood that the first time I had pulled Winston's Dometic 182b that I had neglected to service the Dometic's propane burner.

Well, for starters, I'd put the wires for the auxiliary power socket I stuck next to the vent across the vent ducts. Had to disconnect them, they shouldn't be in the way when I REINSTALL the fridge. Made a point of inverting the fridge several times while I serviced the burner--the first time, I did hear some WEIRD gurgling from the coils, maybe the air WAS working out of the ammonia. Or maybe not, but I didn't think it would hurt anything. The vent hoses and the lower drain are clear of obstructions.

The insulation connecting my spark starter to the ceramic plug in the combustion chamber was frayed, and there was carbon all over the electrode, cleaned that off, and the end of the thermocouple. Put some rubber tape and a shrink tube over the frayed wiring and crimped the plug to the piezoelectric switch--THAT was loose. Got a nice shock out of it. Made a new gasket for the burner assembly out of heavy neoprene while the jet was soaking in Acetone. I did find the body of a tiny little spider in the nozzle.



I'd cleaned everything else out pretty well the first time I'd worked over the fridge and did the GoWesty air pump mod. But I've NEVER heard that fan on the back turn on, and from the shape it was in, I don't think I'm likely to do so.

My current plan is to wire two very high quality Panasonic 12 v. Muffin fans together in parallel, attach them to the wires for the fan BEFORE the thermal switch, which I've disconnected, and then rig a switch in the hot wire going to the front panel of the fridge. Then I won't worry about when the fans turn on--I'll decide that--and I'll know they'll be working then. I'll have a fan blowing air across each set of the coils and then out the vent at the top of the fridge when I want them to.

I took a good look at the worst of Winston's rust behind the fridge--that was easy to do because I reached down and felt the old fiberglass insulation, and it was DAMP. I haven't filled the tank for MONTHS. The fridge hasn't been on. THAT DID IT! It's all gone. The rust, in fact, isn't that bad, but that's sure why there's rust in that spot and no where else.

Ducked in to Home Depot and found a 10' x 24" roll of that Reflectrix insulation that MightyArt likes, for $11. Not quite sure how to attach it--Home Depot was selling Aluminum tape right next to it, I've also got carpet tape and spray adhesive. It does look like interesting stuff, they say it's good for radiant heat and sound deadening.

I looked everywhere for the rust neutralizers Loogy's recommended--couldn't find Osco (I think it's actually called OsPho), Auto Zone says that they carry Evapo-Rust, ours didn't, and nobody had MP-7 = The Must for Rust. I asked a good garage what they used, and ended up with a quart of K;ean Strip 'Phosphoric Prep and Etch' which seems to be a phosphoric acid solution. It warns about prompt re-rusting, but also says it does a good job of prepping for painting.

I took a wire brush to the seam, used the shop vac to vacuum away the loosened material, and hosed the whole area down with the stuff as a spray. I may repeat that tomorrow. The stuff seems to be having some effect. Once it dries, I'll spray some leftover Hammerite (It encapsulates rust!) over that, and then attach the Reflectrix insulation some distance above that. The seams and gaskets of Winston's water, electricity, and city water ports all seem to be fine, actually, and I used my filler to prevent leakage all last year. I think that fiberglass is more EVIL than r39o's rear heater core.

Once the Hammerite's dried over the damaged area, I'll spray on that Mercury Marine Corrosion Preventative = WaxOyl and no insulation will be on the lowest inch of the area behind the cabinets. The side panel will still need to be welded or replaced, it's bad along the seam and nowhere else, but that should buy me some time. Dang it, I've only taken Winston to work during the summers, I want to cover some ground in him.

I'll have to rig the two fans for mounting, I like the split hose some have used for dampening vibration, and then it's screws or baling wire to hold them close to the Dometic's fins, I think.

Anybody have any suggestions?

And I am very tired.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[bucko]

I too removed the fridge/sink/cabinet combo to get behind that area and see how bad the rust was INSIDE that wall, as the body panel OUTSIDE had split at the lower seam due to rust damage. I have the new outer body panel; going to the body shop soon for that to be welded in.
I found the problem as to why the old insulation was damp, and the floor was so badly rusted. When the "City Water" connection is/was used, the 90 degree brass elbow that connects to the plastic hookup box was leaking BADLY! I had a second one, and noticed the boxes plastic threads where cracked. The one on the vanagon was the same. $50.00 new, so my brain began to go into overdrive. Off to Home Depot. I bought a washing machine water hose, and cut off the "male" end. I drilled out the "check valve" that is built into the city water hookup box, and made the hole big enough so that the washing machine hose I bought would slide in. The inside diameter of this washing machine hose allows the smaller hose that connects to the sink spigot to slide right in with a tight seal. One hose clamp sealed that assembly right up. Then I bought a seperate PVC check valve and installed that inline with the Washing machine hose. This closes the water line when city water isn't being used, and allows the water pump to work when we switch to the "contained water" (no air would be drawn in from the city water hookup when the water pump is in operation).

Now when I connect to "city water" at a camp site, the washing machine water hose can slide out about a foot, and then I can connect that to another hose to city water. The dribble from any connections of that circuit no longer happens inside the vanagon.
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181

[tikibus]

The yellow ___________ (Fill in the blank) crap does nothing exept collect moisture. Also, look up into the seam where the window sits. It is a failure point that over time the seal fails and moisture comes in.

You've only gone in with a brush so the real rust is still, hate to say it, it is still there.
When you've gone to "Virgin" metal, and wiped it down with Laquer Thinner you'll get flash rust. Having said that some paints ( POR and Chassis Saver) like a tooth. But be wary of using self etching primers.
Both the paints above prefer Zinc, so the option is there to get the Phospate, Chromate or Oxide.

Chromate is nasty, but other makers like Dupont makes a self etching primer WITH the chomate in it. will run from $6 (PTI) to $22 ( Dupont ).
Ordering Chromate has a Fee to it (HAZMAT). Check out a high end Automotive supply shop for the Dupont spray.

Here is a tid-bit from my hell:

The trick to remove the wax is to first scrape off as much as you can, with a razor blade, yup. A PITA. Colder temps make the wax shatter.
Then the fun part, Coarse steel wool and many cans of Brake cleaner.
14 to 18 cans will do the entire undercarriage. Wear a resperator and safwty goggle, the stuff stings the eyes.
Pre-spray the area. let it soak for 30 sec.
Spray wool with 2 squirts.
Scrub until your arms fall off.
Wipe down with paper towels soaked in Braker Cleaner.
Repeat.
Wash with Brake cleaner.
Repeat with steel wool and the process until brake cleaner runs clear from cleaned area.
Dry with paper towels.
Any steaking... repeat with braker cleaner soaked paper towels.

You'll find shortcuts and a method that is right for you.
It takes time.
I found the Brake Cleaner the only solvent that can liquify the wax long enough to swipe at with the Steel Wool and paper towels.

Most of all,
Have Fun.
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[msinabottle]

Bucko, I've never used the city water once--and the fittings on that look to be in very good shape! My filler goes inside the water tank hose, so we approached the same problem from two different directions.

TikiBus, I couldn't see or feel ANY trace of that wax at all--which might explain the rust, actually--but the very stuff I sprayed on the eroded parts is considered a very effective wax and grease remover, that's why I corrected the name in the post above, to repeat, 'Klean-Strip Phosphoric Prep & Etch'

The rust on that section of the body and the panel really DOES seem to be very localized surface rust, the lower body seems to be quite intact. The Klean-Stip left the remaining metal black, but it was quite solid except for the exterior body panel directly above the seam. Even that's not quite through, yet, my plan is to spray two or three thick coats of Hammerite White--which sure showed the rust on my propane tank guard when that got through-- and that Mercury Wax-Oyl equivalent over that.

I was hoping for some wisdom about attaching the insulation and wiring those fans, but, I very much appreciate the wisdom you've both shared.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[tsombrero1]

[bucko]

"I was hoping for some wisdom about attaching the insulation and wiring those fans, but, I very much appreciate the wisdom you've both shared.

Sorry about that hijacked part of the thread. When I layed down the Home Depot silver backed insulation "Reflectrix" (never knew it had an official name!), I just cut it to size, layed it down, then used the silver tape you refered to, making sure I allowed about an inch and a half of it's width to hold it down to the metal on both sides, or to connect two pieces of it together. Using that 3M adhesive would aslo work, but you'd never remove it in the future, as that stuff is a sticky mess; I always end up with it on my hands, and then that darn insulation is all stuck to me as well. I look like a yellow werewolf.
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181

[msinabottle]

Thank you, JIF and Bucko, for the additional data!

Well, I had the deuce of a time finding the paint I wanted to use on Winston's rust.

My very first project with Winston was when I painted Winston's propane tank and guard, after sanding it, with gloss white Hammerite, which is a paint with glass and resin flakes in it that's supposed to encapsulate rust and cost about $8 a can. I do have some of the black Hammerite left that I used on Winston's New Ugly Bumper (the NUB), but I guess I used all the White--and I couldn't find it at any place but the store where I bought that first can, although I looked in two others.

I wanted to use White on Winston's rust, so that if it IS still active, it'll show up like it did on the guard on the propane. That Klean Strip Phosphoric Prep and Etch had taken off all the visible rust on the guard, I should mention, so I also wanted more of the Hammerite to touch up the bare metal it left where the rust had broken through my first paint job. The tank's stayed good!

I bought a SPST tiny toggle switch for my fan circuit, the nice fellow at Radio Shack explained that I need to wire the two fans in parallel, and I moved the fridge into the house so I can work on it during the snowstorm that's moving in.

Before I painted the rust, I took my fingernail and scratched very hard, trying to find the wax that Tikibus has warned us about--and I found NOTHING. I also checked the Window seal and the area under the water outlets, and there was nothing there but undisturbed dust! The window seals look very good. I'm not actually sure where that moisture was coming from, for a fact. Quite likely the refrigerator coils, I ran that A LOT last summer on AC as I chilled it down. The moisture from the coils would have run down into the fiberglass.

At least there are now three fairly thick coats of Hammerite in between the rust on the inside of the van and the atmosphere. I plan on using some very strong clear acrylic sealer on the outside seam to starve the rust until we can weld in fresh metal. It may not work, but at least it's a strong effort to mitigate.

I have an interesting idea for how to attach that Reflectrix to Winston's panels, and I'm with Bucko on not using the spray adhesive. I bought a bunch of those 3M Mounting Squares, the heavy-duty variety. I'm going to cut the new panels of the Reflectrix to size, put those on the corners, slip 'em into place, and press them into position. Only Winston's fridge is out, you see. But every bit of the Yellow Peril (the fiberglass) is GONE. I kept the chunks for use as templates.

I'm going to wire a junction into the wires I ran to my 12v. accessory outlet, I'll need the slack for the fridge exhausts and that'll give me the option of running the fans whether the refrigerator is on or not--which could be useful. I'll see how it works wired into the wiring for the thermal switch, which I'm taking out of the circuit, if it doesn't, I can run the two fans off the auxiliary battery. Just a matter of switching the connectors. I'm also wiring an inline fuse holder into the fan circuit.

Lot to do, progress made... I hadn't thought this would be all that big a project when I started it.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[tikibus]

Most Likely you have undercoating on top of the wax.
The wax is sprayed up into the U channel metal via two holes that are coverd with plastic plugs. Pop those out and you'll feel the tacky Evil in there.
Tough to get to with the propane tank there, but the right U channel is the same way.

The wax is also sprayed into the front and rear pillars and everywhere else,

Klean Strip Phosphoric Prep and Etch, haven't seen it. NYS has outlawed TSP (Trisodium Phosphate) among other nasty chemicals.

Sending good vibes out on the work and I been working way too much on my rig... I think I'm loosing it a wee bit... Nothing like painting a undercarriage with a 1 inch brush to get at the nooks and crannys.
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[danfromsyr]

Tiki, I think your van may have been 'treated' to a hot wax job..

as I've had more then a few.. hell theres 6 vanagons in my yard at the moment. and I think 3 at my dads. Hmmm make that 4..

none have the waxy undercoating.. someone prolly applied a 'waxoyl' treeatment.. of some such..

from factory ALL vanagons were Dip primered as part of the painting process. and asphalt undercoated. though thats possibly a northern US thing. .I unfortunately don't have any southern vans here.

anyways.. best of luck to all..

and Tiki better get ahold of me for that slider donor.. before I use it as a jig for making fiberglass jalousie trims.

dan in Syracuse

[hiram6]

That's what I was tinking as well, Dan. Mine doesn't have the waxy stuff that Tiki refers to, but mine does have lots of holes in the door jambs that have "Ziebart Protected" black rubber plugs in them. Most likely a variety of rust prevention strategies were employed over the years.
_________________
1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited

You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning.

[msinabottle]

Well, that's done. I made one silly and embarrassing visible mistake, but, on the whole, everything I planned on doing is done, and what I can test looks good.

All right--I did what I said I was going to do in my earlier posts--when I found that wretched fiberglass still damp when I hadn't filled the tank since August, it went. Every bit of it. I should have taken Bucko's kindly warning about the gloves and the long sleeves, but I got away with it. Rust, gunk, everywhere, it's all gone.

Then I wire brushed the rust scale away, vacuumed everything off, used that Klean Strip Phosphor Etch and Paint, and put down the three coats of white Hammerite to starve the rust for oxygen. After Bucko's warning, I wrapped the connector for the 'city water' with fusing rubber tape and re-rigged my auxiliary socket so that there was wire enough to clear the refrigerator exhausts. Then I used the removed fiberglass and cut sheets of Reflectix (I got the name incorrectly in my earlier posts) to the same size. Here's what it looked like when I was done:

The mounting squares worked fairly well, the aluminum tape was the best. I used a razor blade and holder to cut the hole in that for the refrigerator exhaust. Once that was in place, last night I sprayed a good thick coat of that Mercury Corrosion Preventative = WaxOyl, so wax DID get in there. But it's on top of the rust, in between that and the air. I'll seal the outside seams with acrylic sealer in time. In case anyone's wondering, that little strip of fiberboard that wedges the fridge on the left side had fallen off--I used a heavy staple gun, and it's going NOWHERE, now.

I had two very high quality Panasonic muffin fans that I'd bought a long time ago from an industrial electrical supply company to cool my computer case. Never used them for that, I ended up buying a very noisy, very cool 'Tornado' model from 3DCool instead. The only bad thing about these two fans was their 'telephone wire' gauge connectors, they even had the direction of the fan and the air flow stamped onto their cases. Finally had a chance to put them to work in the place of my old fan.

The man at the Radio Shack said I was mad! But he also said I should wire the two fans in parallel and put an on-off SP switch in the ground circuit. I soldered 16 gauge wire onto the connectors of the fans, I should have used crush-splices, because one of my solders snapped off and I had to use one anyway when I spliced in some wire to repair the connection. I did use the crush-on twist splices for my two junctions in the fan circuit.

I wired in an old fuse holder into the power circuit--the yellow wire on the Dometic's fan circuit--and putting in the switch was fairly easy in the ground wire. I used a toggle switch from Ace with screws and ring terminals on the wires. I have little confidence in my soldering. You can see the red power wire holding the fuse holder and the blue/black wire running to the switch in the front console in this picture:

I used split rubber tubing--actually insulation from the sprinkler system cable I used for moving fuses to the new fuse box--on the fins, and 3.5" #8 Machine screws, through the fan housing and with washers on the heads to press the fans tightly against the hosing as they gripped at the fins.

It was a little fun getting all those long screws through the fans and the fins on either side of the cooling tube, but I managed it. The task would have been easier had I found and employed longer screws. Here's a good look at the final mount:

I hooked up the fan circuit to a little 1.5 amp 12v. battery charger, and they ran and moved a lot of air, so they're certainly not using that much power! I'm always a little amazed when something works. I used a 5/8" drill bit to punch a hole through the Dometic's top plastic panel, VERY CAREFULLY--that's old plastic, I put some 'Goop' urethane glue over the cracks I found in that. I had to use a carbide cutter on the Dremel to make the hole exactly the right size and smooth out the edges. And here...



Is the embarrassing visible mistake. I forgot that that top panel is partly covered over by the wooden panel that encloses the Dometic's front door on a Westy. Here's where I put the switch, which was a very good spot in terms of the wiring:

Two centimeters, at least, to the left, folks. I was sufficiently grouchy when I found that the molding covered the switch to cut a notch in the plastic trim and use the Dremel and cutter to make a slot in the wood of the panel just big enough to let the switch move. When it did, it operated both fans very satisfactorily, even with the refrigerator off. You can feel the air coming up and out the vent on the side of the 'kitchen counter.' The two fans running together are quieter than the four in my computer case, but audible. Here's a picture of the entire set-up:

With the usual struggle, everything went back together again and into Winston, and of course I was eager to see if the fridge would light. I put my piece of brake line to the bottom of the vent... I blew in air... I pumped my GoWesty retrofitted pump... I clicked my re-insulated and cleaned sparker... I pushed the fuel button. For an hour and a half. And got... JACK.

Oh, goody. At least I could test the sparker by spraying just a whiff of starting fluid up the vent hole and hitting <WHOOSH> that... But... Nothing...

And then I remembered that I'm not the only victim of that $!!!)*&@ panel. The dratted thing hides the 'I' indicator of the gas valve at the top of the refrigerator. You can see it in the photo above, but not when the fridge is back in the van. I had it in the 'O' position.

Well, that was stupid. UNDERSTANDABLE, but stupid.



10 minutes later, the fridge lit very nicely.

And I am very tired.
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[Paulbeard]

Curious about how hard/how long it takes to R&R the fridge. Pretty sure I am going to find the usual horrorshow of damp yellow fluff back there and a bit of tinworm to scour away. But I am mostly interested in making the fridge work better/quieter — mo' better fans and whatever TLC it might need. Is this a day or two to manage? I am living in a 6th floor unit with my rig parked behind a nearby retail business. I have space and reasonably secure privacy to work but wouldn't want to have my Frida eviscerated for a long period of time.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs

[Yellow Rabbit]

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that has struggled to light the fridge only to find I had the gas in in the off position.

[jimf909]

Removal is surprisingly easy: screws on each side through the cabinets; unscrew the vent; disconnect the propane and electric; slide it out. Easily done in less than an hour by an amateur like me after reading about it in the Bentley. Air pump recondition, fan refurbish, and reinstall I can't comment on, mine went to the dump after doing too little for too long.
_________________
- Jim

[Paulbeard]

[jimf909]

To me, it sounds like. It's 10x easier than pulling the dash.
_________________
- Jim

[Paulbeard]

Hmm, not so much easier than the dash if you don't disconnect the right gas line and kink the ^&%&^% out of it. The Bentley (cursed be its name) says, blithely, "disconnect the gas line" with an arrow helpfully pointing to the wrong fitting, the one for the stove. I assumed the one I wanted was the one I could see, not one obscured by the cabinetry. Once I pushed the fridge all the way back in, fighting with the flue for every inch, I was able to get the right connection off and it came out quite easily.

So what are my options if the copper gas line is a tad…bent? Do I get a plumber to make a new one? Or can it be used as is?

This is exactly what I didn't want, to have the pieces out and no way to put them back in.

On the plus side, the insulation looks surprisingly good, if a bit dirty. I haven't pulled it yet, as I have reached my quota of disappointment for the moment. Found out why the stock fan makes noise: one of the blades hits a pipe on the back with each revolution — tingtingtingtingtingting…So a little muffin fan is waiting to go in its place.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs

[msinabottle]

Link


There are others.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[Paulbeard]

Prolly past that now…as it's sitting here in front of me.

Going to see how well it goes back tomorrow. I know to remove it properly now. I'm not as bothered by what I see behind it and when I can do a proper ServantOfElwood job, I'll revisit this.

I'm not sure where the two leads go for the fan, which is + and which -. I don't know that it makes a lot of difference as the fan is right up against the fins where the stock unit was and will pull air either way. I'd prefer it pushed air into the fins if possible. Looks like yellow is + from what I can tell above.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs

[Paulbeard]

So upon reinstallation, I seem to have made the supply line to the fridge leak. I got it reconnected and when I crack open the tank valve a half turn, I get some bubbles from the soap I liberally applied. Seems like a tight connection but I will re-do it presently just to be sure of it. Failing that, how can I cap the fridge line so I can still use the stove when I am afield? I hate to think I have killed the most field-worthy part of the Dometic but I'll deal with that separately. Do I just add a valve in the line before it gets there?

Hoping this is all academic but it would be a shame to lose the ability to cook as well as chill food.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs