| Author |
Message |
richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6983
Location: Durango, CO
|
 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
 |
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that 1904 might make what...90...110 hp on a good day... |
I’d love to see the dyno run that produces those numbers...my 2175 puts out 75 HP and 110 FPT dynoed on a mustang dyno in Tucson, real numbers...
Link
_________________
__________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Xevin 
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7635
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
I feel inferior to all these “Hot takes” on fuel mileage. My POS 1972 with a 2.0 GD engine, 091 trans, and stupid Weber progressive averaged 18 mpg on my 500 mile round trip last week.
Some stats:
-72 Campmobile
-Thule box on top
-Lots of heavy crap and beer loaded up.
-Hankook RA08 Bus tires
-500 mile round trip
-Two Big ass Mountain passes 4700’ plus, back and forth.
-Carabus with with 2 late Bays, a 70 deluxe with trailers, 71 Campmobile, and a Van GL.
-Average speed between 55-65ish.
-Good Times
-Beautiful scenery.
-Priceless
-Keep on Busin’
_________________
Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd  |
| SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| richparker wrote: |
I’d love to see the dyno run that produces those numbers...my 2175 puts out 75 HP and 110 FPT dynoed on a mustang dyno in Tucson, real numbers...
|
well, here you go. next time get your builder to do some math...bigger displacement doesn't mean bigger horsepower....for example a chevy 350 from the 80's made what 145 horse? big deal...my stock 1.8t makes 225...
and it was done here, as I use them from time to time for machine work.
http://www.johnsonenginetechnology.com/
and...I also live 20 mins away from foxwoods ("fabulous") indian gaming facility, which puts johnsons about 30 mins away from me...just in case this doesn't do it for you....because....you know....how could I make more power with smaller displacement?
and, not to muddy things....this was AT THE FLYWHEEL I had it out to fix a shitty throw out bearing and was wondering what it made for power...this was dyno'd with about 7-8k miles on it. and you'll see the torque peaks at just about the sweet spot. I didn't build a drag engine....I built a stump puller
would you like me to ship you a dna sample?
and....here is a 1904 CB did....so you can make a lot of power when you have a clue....
Link
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
Last edited by skills@eurocarsplus on Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6983
Location: Durango, CO
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
and, not to muddy things....this was AT THE FLYWHEEL I had it out to fix a shitty throw out bearing and was wondering what it made for power...this was dyno'd with about 7-8k miles on it. and you'll see the torque peaks at just about the sweet spot. I didn't build a drag engine....I built a stump puller
would you like me to ship you a dna sample? |
Hahahahaha, I knew that would get you all fired up! 😜
Many ppl are flywheel guys, I’m a rear wheel guy.
Anyway, here another example where larger displacement engines put down as good or better MPGs when built and tuned correctly.
_________________
__________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| richparker wrote: |
Many ppl are flywheel guys, I’m a rear wheel guy.. |
so, even at a generous 20% powertrain loss (average is what, 10-15%) that will still make 81/105 at the wheels....
what were you saying about big engines again?
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beetleman217
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2011
Posts: 515
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
Would this fit the bill? -> http://www.busdepot.com/022905205s
Could the timing on my current one be off, causing the bad gas mileage? Don't want to go through all the trouble and discover it was timing. What are the correct timing numbers for my centrifugal distributor?
And should I stick with 10-30 oil or go back to the trusty 20-50?
_________________
If all else fails, stop using all else
1977 Westfalia
1961 Beetle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| beetleman217 wrote: |
Would this fit the bill? -> http://www.busdepot.com/022905205s
Could the timing on my current one be off, causing the bad gas mileage? Don't want to go through all the trouble and discover it was timing. What are the correct timing numbers for my centrifugal distributor?
And should I stick with 10-30 oil or go back to the trusty 20-50? |
Don't buy that distributor. It's a Cadrone remanufactured Bosch distributor. Search Cardone on this site. They are junk rebuilds. I've taken apart several of this Cardone rebuilds. They were all worn out with miss-matched parts, wrong vacuum canisters, heavily worn points cams, heavily worn advance weight pins, etc. Simply horrific in all areas.
I can build you a nice, restored German Bosch SVDA that will be perfect for your application. PM if you're interested.
Oil weight should be factored on your oil pressure. A tight tolerance engine should be perfectly fine with 10W-30 unless it's really cold in the winter where you live. I run 10W-30 in my VW's year around.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
My vote is with Don. BTW what are we arguing about?
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beetleman217
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2011
Posts: 515
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
Don't buy that distributor. It's a Cadrone remanufactured Bosch distributor. Search Cardone on this site. They are junk rebuilds. I've taken apart several of this Cardone rebuilds. They were all worn out with miss-matched parts, wrong vacuum canisters, heavily worn points cams, heavily worn advance weight pins, etc. Simply horrific in all areas.
|
But Busdepot are very reputable... Would they stick with selling junk?
_________________
If all else fails, stop using all else
1977 Westfalia
1961 Beetle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spezialist
Banned
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 1941
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Spezialist wrote: |
| Meh, you’ve called bullshite on me before, ten years later I produced evidence and shut you up.. |
 when did you "shut me up" ? chances are, I just walked away because, you know...it's you...and there is zero reasoning with you....
the forum at large has recorded the numbers that I state..24 is about the holy grail number buddy...carb or FI...stock or modified....or running a watercooled gas or diesel.
so you mean to tell me you're the only guy that has hit 35mpg in a bay? even the rock star bus cross country driving consultants haven't hit anything better than 24..
I have seen your posts on other forums....which leads me to believe that you are really off center, and reality (real world or otherwise) is something you just fail to accept.
just to prove that I am a nice guy....and that you are some internet hero who will not put your money where your mouth is.....I will pay to transport your 35mpg bus out to Connecticut, pay to fly you here to prove it to me.
we will calibrate a 35 mile loop, your speedo, GPS and 1 US gallon of gasoline. I want to see for myself a baywindow with a 1600 get 35 miles to 1 gallon of gas. and, you must average 45-50 mph...that is real world speed. and...no bullshit "coasting" down hill or any of the other hyper-miler bullshit that 99% of real world drivers DO NOT do.
I want to see the results as any average bus owner would drive a bus. not some kick it in neutral, shut the bus off and coast for 1/4 mile bullshit...real world averages here
if I am wrong, you win. if I am right, I want double my money back. let me know how you want to proceed. and to make it fair...YOU have to get 35mpg out of it, and I have to get 35mpg out of it...just to prove it is possible. I will drive it EXACTLY like you...and we will both be in the bus together...for better or worse....we will leave friends, or not....I don't care one way or the other...
so, lets do it. we will start a youtube channel so everyone can see this magical 35 mpg baywindow. |
Appeal to the crowd and personal attacks in the same post! -2 points!
Did I miss anything?
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Volswagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Knoxville, TN
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
Considering I drove Chrysler vans as taxis for years and averaged 18-20 mpg, my Bus averaging about the same when I was daily driving her seems reasonable.
My Ghia, along with this 5-speed S10 I drive now, get the mid to high 20's.
It is tempting to run these motors on the lean side, but you're cooking the goose running leaner than 13-14:1 A/F.
_________________
I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
buckswilde
Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Lexington, KY
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:53 am Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
My old 78 bus with a stock rebuild and dual 34 ICT's always got 16 mpg. Didn't matter how I drove it. Usually 70 mph on the highway and flooring it up the mountains. It did a little better with the Weber progressive.
My current 79 bus with a stock 2.0L (unknown milage) and recently redone FI system is averaging 22 mpg in city / highway mix driving. Mostly city. Very happy with it buy #3 cylinder is at 90 PSI. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| beetleman217 wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
Don't buy that distributor. It's a Cadrone remanufactured Bosch distributor. Search Cardone on this site. They are junk rebuilds. I've taken apart several of this Cardone rebuilds. They were all worn out with miss-matched parts, wrong vacuum canisters, heavily worn points cams, heavily worn advance weight pins, etc. Simply horrific in all areas.
|
But Busdepot are very reputable... Would they stick with selling junk? |
In this case, yes. Again, search this site for Cardone distributors. I've done several ultopsy's on Cardone distributors as have others. It's shocking how bad the work is.
Here, I found a thread.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=688544&highlight=
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
MIssing 11 mpg, nothing else.
_________________
.ssS! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| Dump the 009 for starters. |
X2! Get a restored SVDA German Bosch distributor like was in it when delivered new. You'll really like how it runs with the vacuum and mechanical advance. You're mile per gallon will improve as well. |
They didn't come with an SVDA new. |
This says it did.
Bus & Pickup Late 1976-1978 All States, 1979 Federal * 2000
Distributor: VW 021-905-205P, Bosch 0231 168 005 > 022-905-205S, 0231 170 093
Note: 0231 170 093 dist primarily used on California Late 1976-1978 and all Federal 1979 Models
Can Use:
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 0231 168 005 dist originally equipped with Speed Limiting Rotor 04 016 (5400rpm)
Cap: 03 010
Coil: 00 012
Vacuum Can: 07 060
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 850-950 rpm (Man Trans), 900-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacumm hose connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8.5-11deg Adv @ 7.9 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 8-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 20.5-24.5 @ 3400 rpm |
SVDA is a generic term.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| Spezialist wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Spezialist wrote: |
| Meh, you’ve called bullshite on me before, ten years later I produced evidence and shut you up.. |
when did you "shut me up" ? chances are, I just walked away because, you know...it's you...and there is zero reasoning with you....
the forum at large has recorded the numbers that I state..24 is about the holy grail number buddy...carb or FI...stock or modified....or running a watercooled gas or diesel.
so you mean to tell me you're the only guy that has hit 35mpg in a bay? even the rock star bus cross country driving consultants haven't hit anything better than 24..
I have seen your posts on other forums....which leads me to believe that you are really off center, and reality (real world or otherwise) is something you just fail to accept.
just to prove that I am a nice guy....and that you are some internet hero who will not put your money where your mouth is.....I will pay to transport your 35mpg bus out to Connecticut, pay to fly you here to prove it to me.
we will calibrate a 35 mile loop, your speedo, GPS and 1 US gallon of gasoline. I want to see for myself a baywindow with a 1600 get 35 miles to 1 gallon of gas. and, you must average 45-50 mph...that is real world speed. and...no bullshit "coasting" down hill or any of the other hyper-miler bullshit that 99% of real world drivers DO NOT do.
I want to see the results as any average bus owner would drive a bus. not some kick it in neutral, shut the bus off and coast for 1/4 mile bullshit...real world averages here
if I am wrong, you win. if I am right, I want double my money back. let me know how you want to proceed. and to make it fair...YOU have to get 35mpg out of it, and I have to get 35mpg out of it...just to prove it is possible. I will drive it EXACTLY like you...and we will both be in the bus together...for better or worse....we will leave friends, or not....I don't care one way or the other...
so, lets do it. we will start a youtube channel so everyone can see this magical 35 mpg baywindow. |
Appeal to the crowd and personal attacks in the same post! -2 points!
Did I miss anything? |
This is better than the Special Olympics... and WAY more special!
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| Volswagon wrote: |
Considering I drove Chrysler vans as taxis for years and averaged 18-20 mpg, my Bus averaging about the same when I was daily driving her seems reasonable.
My Ghia, along with this 5-speed S10 I drive now, get the mid to high 20's.
It is tempting to run these motors on the lean side, but you're cooking the goose running leaner than 13-14:1 A/F. |
Not at all.
Get out of the 14:1 - 15:1 range and the EGT/CHT will drop with a lean tune cruise. Provided you have a vacuum advance distributor.
See where the temps go from peak beyond ~15:1 AFR. 16-17 is optimal. No leaner otherwise you risk power loss and pre-ignition under certain load conditions (rare if timing is correct) but it will begin to lean miss.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spezialist
Banned
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 1941
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:18 am Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| Spezialist wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Spezialist wrote: |
| Meh, you’ve called bullshite on me before, ten years later I produced evidence and shut you up.. |
when did you "shut me up" ? chances are, I just walked away because, you know...it's you...and there is zero reasoning with you....
the forum at large has recorded the numbers that I state..24 is about the holy grail number buddy...carb or FI...stock or modified....or running a watercooled gas or diesel.
so you mean to tell me you're the only guy that has hit 35mpg in a bay? even the rock star bus cross country driving consultants haven't hit anything better than 24..
I have seen your posts on other forums....which leads me to believe that you are really off center, and reality (real world or otherwise) is something you just fail to accept.
just to prove that I am a nice guy....and that you are some internet hero who will not put your money where your mouth is.....I will pay to transport your 35mpg bus out to Connecticut, pay to fly you here to prove it to me.
we will calibrate a 35 mile loop, your speedo, GPS and 1 US gallon of gasoline. I want to see for myself a baywindow with a 1600 get 35 miles to 1 gallon of gas. and, you must average 45-50 mph...that is real world speed. and...no bullshit "coasting" down hill or any of the other hyper-miler bullshit that 99% of real world drivers DO NOT do.
I want to see the results as any average bus owner would drive a bus. not some kick it in neutral, shut the bus off and coast for 1/4 mile bullshit...real world averages here
if I am wrong, you win. if I am right, I want double my money back. let me know how you want to proceed. and to make it fair...YOU have to get 35mpg out of it, and I have to get 35mpg out of it...just to prove it is possible. I will drive it EXACTLY like you...and we will both be in the bus together...for better or worse....we will leave friends, or not....I don't care one way or the other...
so, lets do it. we will start a youtube channel so everyone can see this magical 35 mpg baywindow. |
Appeal to the crowd and personal attacks in the same post! -2 points!
Did I miss anything? |
This is better than the Special Olympics... and WAY more special! |
Kinda funny, really. My claim for mileage isn’t much over the advertised rates for a 70 panel. I’ve stated I don’t drive in over loaded conditions and my few bolt on mods make it simple to try yourself. Some guys like driving their fat grandma purses around I guess.
When looking at a factory owners manual of the period VW states to drive the car briskly.
That and having the lightest van as a base it’s a cinch..
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
914guy
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2008
Posts: 167
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| I have a 74 westy with a stock 2 l and a single Holley Weber. We get 17.5 mpg on the highway and 14 mpg in the city. The best we got in the last year was 22.8 mpg and worst was 13.3 mpg in city driving. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: What's your MPG (miles per gallon) fuel gas mileage FAQ |
|
|
| 914guy wrote: |
| I have a 74 westy with a stock 2 l and a single Holley Weber. We get 17.5 mpg on the highway and 14 mpg in the city. The best we got in the last year was 22.8 mpg and worst was 13.3 mpg in city driving. |
Wow, plenty of room for improvement there 
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
