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Tiico or Subie - new info
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beteljuze
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Tiico or Subie - new info Reply with quote

I was a Ford Tech for 20 years when the dealership closed.I started as a tech at a place called Legend,where we sell Porsches,Audi's and Vw's.Started here about 6 weeks ago.I drive a 88 Vanagon Westy,A 79 Westy,and a 84 Porsche 911.Theres a coupla older techs here that worked on everything Volkswagen ever made.They all hate the Vanagon-think its the worst thing Vw put out.Anyway,the point of the story-I showed them the Subie and the Tiico conversions,and asked which was better.I was really surprised-they readily agreed the Subie motor was way better suited for the Vanagon(and these are die hard german is better than jap stuff guys!)They said that Volkswagen has not used the Tiico block in a car since 1990,and it is a non-crossflow design.It is way behind in modern technology.In fact,most of the techs here said they would rather buy a rebuilt wbx before they would even touch the Tiico.(By the way-the "rebuilt'' wbx from the dealer is actually a new one-not rebuilt)They agreed the Subie is a modern,easily fixable engine,and they all said its the better choice.I showed them the Tiico website and the East Coast Vanagon website.They loved the turn key Subie Conversion.The other engine they would pick is the 1.8T out of a Jetta or GTI-like the Vanagon on the Vwvortex site.Don't mean to offend any Tiico people-I still drive my wbx with 180k miles-I just thought this would be interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Now I need to build a subaru to compare the two Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Tiico or Subie - new info Reply with quote

Quote:
The other engine they would pick is the 1.8T out of a Jetta or GTI-like the Vanagon on the Vwvortex site.


My 1.8T still makes me giddy months after getting it back. Very Happy It's a new vehicle altogether.

Lundy
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mcsyncro
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just 'cause that's what they think, don't make it true...........

Last edited by mcsyncro on Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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r39o
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcsyncro wrote:
just 'cause that what they think, don't make it true...........


True, there are many options and your choice depends on which one fits you best.
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mellow cat
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like them both, however while I don't dig the Tiico conversion kit, I do dig the VW inline 4 option using motors that we had imported in the US. As far as repair and up-keep long term cost of operation, its hard to beat.

The Suby is a bit more complicated, opinion, and newish electronic needs, and (only by compairison to the inline 4) is more trouble to maintain.

All depends on your program, always does.

both common, lots of parts, The suby motor does "feel" right in terms of "seat of your pants" and is smoother at idle and high RPM over the Inline 4. But the Inline 4 is simply bullet-proof. When you start out on a long road trip of questionable conditions and locations I always felt really confident in the motor. That equates to a lot in the Vanagon world.

If I had to so it again, I would probably do an inline 4 again over the Suby. I would spend the time to build the right inline. Balance, counterweight, etc. I think thats the ticket. Maybe I will build one in the future

Good luck...I'm lots of help.
MC
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r39o
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mellow cat wrote:
Iboth common, lots of parts, The suby motor does "feel" right in terms of "seat of your pants" and is smoother at idle and high RPM over the Inline 4. But the Inline 4 is simply bullet-proof. When you start out on a long road trip of questionable conditions and locations I always felt really confident in the motor. That equates to a lot in the Vanagon world.

I have been driving the I4 in various VAG products now for....drum roll...33 years. They are great. I have hundreds of thousands of miles under my belt in them. I am quite used to them. I think they are a solid engine, no question.

I am a VERY German person. Card carrying. We only drive German cars. Several of them. I am quite used to them. Faults and all.

For me, it is a real toss up. The I4 and the Suby are reliable. It is a fact. I have considered and reconsidered the engine issue for over a year now. I gave up on the idea of a built up wbx simply because when all is said and done, it will still have the same issues all wbxs have. It boils down to what you are most comfortable with. So it is the I4 or the Suby or whatever meets your needs. I may yet not have made my mind up, though....UGH!
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levi
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
........ I may yet not have made my mind up, though....UGH!

I'm going to suspect that's because you haven't driven vanagon's with both conversions in them to compare. Have you? Two summers back I was at Yosemite with my automatic/suby, and right next to me was a guy from Canada with his Tiico westy. We had to test drive each other's rig....and then again. There's a big difference in torque.
By the way....I had heard about, and was expecting to experience the higher vibration from his Tiico. Maybe I needed more time driving it, but I sure didn't notice it.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did have the opportunity to drive both side by side after driving my 1.9 WBX an hour to the shop. Both are a major improvement over the WBX, with the Subie definitely "smoother revving, sounding, and running," though the inline certainly had its merits as well. It's difficult to choose between the two for me, I think it comes down to personal preference.

*Disclaimer: I'm obviously a huge advocate for the 1.8T since that's what I went with. I drove a third Vanagon that day with the 1.8T, and there was absolutely no comparison. The Subie and Tiico were difficult to differentiate, both nice. The 1.8T totally blew them away and will pass CA BAR officials!

Not everyone has the opportunity to drop one of these in, I just happened to be in a position where I could afford to (only $1500 more than the Subie, about $2000 more than the Tiico at the shop if I remember correctly). I just knew that I would lose sleep at night thinking about what could have been.

I encourage whoever is considering a conversion to drive as many different versions as possible. This is the only way for you to determine what's right for you. Everything else is just some other guy's opinion (like mine). With that said, good luck making your decision.

Lundy
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r39o
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had the chance to drive both an I4 and a Suby Vanagon.

The I4 was an 82 Diesel Westy converted to an Audi 3A 2.0 with a knock box wired up and CIS-E injection and a 268 cam with the 6 bolt dual exhaust manifold and mild porting. Same setup I used in my 79 GTI and my 82 Cabriolet. The Westy was a 4 speed with freeway gearing for 3rd and 4th. It didn't vibrate as we installed hydraulic mounts from a Passat 16V, I think it was. It was CARB legal because I knew what needed to be installed from my 79 GTI referee experience. I wish my friend would not have sold this one as I would gladly run it even though I like the interior color of my 85 better. (Don't like wood grain!) This engine combo doesn't like running beyond 4500 rpm or so which is fine but winding out the gears is not in the program. (The 3A is a short stroke engine so torque is on the low end.) Too me, it "felt" heavy in the back. At the time we didn't know about the sway bars you could get. This was in the before Tico days, too. We used all diesel parts and made up the wiring and CIS lines. My buddy had a VW only wrecking yard at the time (D&P for old San Diego locals.) We worked our butts off on that one as it was all new then. So I am a tad gun shy on that conversion. I have to admit it was cheap to do, even though we had any part you could want on hand. To buy all the parts would have been about $2K to a customer. These days I would integrate an A3 engine which are cheap to find these days and more like the Tico. Anyways, in short, it ran just fine.

The Suby Vanagon belongs to a friend of mine who did the job over 6 years ago now. 4 speed, too. Standard Vanagon gearing. He made lots of the parts because they were not readily available at thet time. His van really gets up and goes, I must admit. You couldn't guess this is a 350K mile van. Engine has some 200K these days. Unlike the Westy with the I4 the Suby van is hard to keep under the speed limit. I know the Westy is a bigger brick, but even so, the Suby has lots to give.

So you can keep it all VW and you do not need to spend for a whole Tico. I know that for a fact. I also know the Suby can be done just as easy. Cost wise it sort of is a toss up, at least in my case because I will go find the parts cheap, mostly.

The above is why it is sort of a toss up with me.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o, in your opinion what engine is best for the I4?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill W wrote:
r39o, in your opinion what engine is best for the I4?

2.0T or TDI!!!!!

But the most economical would be an engine from an A3 topped with a head fitted for CIS or common rail injection. That means no cross flow head unless you can figure out the intake manifold or some other magic, like the SA engine lid lift.

Since I always am looking for the most bang for the buck and easy to find parts, an A3 comes with the later belt system parts. If you choose wisely all the diesel parts will fit easy.

For injection, as you know, CIS is the easiest. I like CIS-E but you need to be good wiring it up. (The 1.8L 8V CIS-E controller works just fine with a 2.0) If just CIS, you will need to mod an A1 or A2 knock sensor harness. To be more complicated about it, you could bring in the A3 Motronic, but I am not sure how. Or source the harness and brain from an SA breaker and I am sure the shipping would not be too much. I am equally sure an A1 or A2 Digijet or Digifant controller will also work fine with the 2.0 but, you need the common rail injection setup.

The box stock A3 2.0 is something like 115hp. Add the cam and a free flowing exhaust and I betcha you get 125 - 135 hp out of it and not strain it alt all. These are 5 main bearing engines and the bottom ends are quite stout.

What I really like is the stuff is very common because it was used here in the USA a good deal. In other words you can expect to get service and repair parts a lot easier and cheaper than the SA stuff.
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r39o
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what the worst thing is?

I am now thinking about an I4 again.

Sigh....
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya know, a 5 cylinder vw/audi motor isn't really that hard to install.
a non-turbo 5 cyl still has tons of torque and good h/p. i think a
2.5 liter eurovan motor would be a great install for a vanagon.
hell, you can buy a complete good running eurovan for 2500.00 or less.
plus with a non turbo you don't have all the hassle of turbo plumbing.


Last edited by mcsyncro on Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This makes me want to fly to SA, score 10 Vanagons worth of I5 swap parts and call it even.I'd flush my I4 for the I5 any day.
I want "unlimited POWER!!!"
I never liked the tiico set up, my frankenstine diesel swap has allways made me happy. Cheep parts and I can rev to 6500rpm without any care. To pull 4th at 65mph and STOMP on it and jump to 80mph_____priceless Very Happy I've gotten to 100 but got spooked at that speed Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is it : I have to go to SA to get parts. These guys will wonder why folks want carrier bars,bell housings,flywheels and the like.
I feel like Luke wanting to go to Dagoba Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come to think about it, plumbing in a Digijet/Digifant/Mono-Motronic or what ever the common rail system is called from the early 90's may be the simiplest thing to do.

Did they have an I5 with that common rail system????

If so, can you get the engine cover on normally? This is a biggie with me.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

86 quantum CIS e, sitting in a box now 3 years,pump and all fuel components. Bolts up, no deck crap, just need the bell and mounts, keeps me up at night Evil or Very Mad
I need a passport Brick wall and some $$$$$$$$$$
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Tiico or Subie - new info Reply with quote

beteljuze wrote:
They said that Volkswagen has not used the Tiico block in a car since 1990,and it is a non-crossflow design.It is way behind in modern technology.In fact,most of the techs here said they would rather buy a rebuilt wbx before they would even touch the Tiico.(


There is nothing wrong with the non-crossflow VW/Audi engine. Techtonics Tuning was able to get excellent flow out of this head, and along with a 268 cam, these 2.0s easily put out over 140hp back in the day.

I do agree with the techs that it isn't ideal for the Vanagon, though. It doesn't fit at all well in a Vanagon - either mounted over at 50 degrees on poorly engineered diesel carrier bars, or sitting at 15 degrees and sticking through the engine lid.

The beauty of the Subaru 2.2 is that it fits the van well, runs smoothly, and has excellent output. It's hard to fault a motor that regularly goes over 200K in Subaru Legacys.

I am as die hard of a VW/Audi person as anyone else here, and I do wish I could keep it VW, Audi or Porsche under the rear lid. I'm just not willing to compromise the layout of the van to achieve that. But I definitely do wrestle with that desire to keep it German. I've done several Subaru conversions, but right now I'm building a 2.5 wasserboxer just to see how I like it.

Also, I'm not surprised VW techs would have bad memories of Vanagons. From a service bay standpoint they were a nightmare from day one. ie: oil leaks and electrical problems with the AFC models, bewildering cooling system bleeding and head gasket issues on the 1983.5 wasserboxer, and then refinements to, but never solutions to the cracked head and corrosion problem all the way through 1991. But from an owners point of view, we know what great vehicles they are. Right? Smile

David
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

''Did they have an I5 with that common rail system???? ''
YES. eurovan has the same fuel injection as the corrado, only with
one more cylinder , hey Bill W, build your own adaptor plate and
engine mount, and get some sleep! I can show you how. if you have
access to a torch, it's easy brother.
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