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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| p.s. you should also remove the distributor drive to avoid it binding and giving a false reading. |
Thats very bad advice to give a novice, due to the fact of possible problems getting the dist drive out and the possibility of dropping shims INSIDE the motor.
End play can be checked on the bench before assembly. Next best way is after the short block is together. Most people check it before adding the flywheel O-ring and seal to eliminate added resistance. On a complete motor you have more resistance from all the parts, like the P/C, seals, etc.
I like to put the dial indicator on the crank pulley end as it eliminates flexing of the flywheel. Using 2 big screwdrivers will give erroneous readings also. Fingers work just fine. Choose your advice wisely  |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I just checked mine and it was at .005, the max acceptable in Bentley. Would I be better off adding a .0095 shim to bring it to about .004? Or would I be better off leaving it at .005? Thanks!
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| I just checked mine and it was at .005, the max acceptable in Bentley. Would I be better off adding a .0095 shim to bring it to about .004? Or would I be better off leaving it at .005? Thanks! |
the number of shims you use are 3. Not 4 not 2. ALWAYS 3.
I set mine at .004. Some people set them at .003. It is FREE PLAY not how far you can move it under pressure. It you push hard enough you can flex the case or the flywheel. Also, some shims get warped . This is awful. You do not want to use a warped shim or one with burrs on it. I sand each shim on a piece of flat glass with 2000 grit sandpaper. Then I look at it. If it is wavy it is a spare shim probably never to be used. If it has burrs I sand gently until the burrs are gone.
If you have .005 clearance and you want .004 you remove one shim, measure it and replace it with one that is .001 thicker. Sometimes you have to remove 2 shims and find two that together measure .001" thicker and try again. Again - you are measuring free play. You can use two screw drivers behind the flywheel to gently move it. Set your gauge the move the pulley with two screw drivers. Let it relax and take your reading. Do it several times. The flywheel bolts must be torqued.
FYI - Once an engine breaks in normally it will move enough to check the free play with the distributor in. However I ended up with .008 free play in about 150 miles leaving the distributor in with a new brass gear. I've done this hundreds of times and this was the first time such a thing happened. The next time I did the engine I set it before I put the distributor. I save putting that and the distributor gear in for last. It was set to .004" and 2000 miles later it is still at .004". Set it the first time with the flywheel seal and the distributor and gear not installed yet.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:10 am Post subject: |
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In my rush to get the bus back together I forgot to get back to you. Thanks a bunch for reminding me of the "three" rule. I'm sure I read it once but I definitely needed the reminder. I appreciate it. Got it to .004 with two new shims and one perfectly flat one reused. Thanks again.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| In my rush to get the bus back together I forgot to get back to you. Thanks a bunch for reminding me of the "three" rule. I'm sure I read it once but I definitely needed the reminder. I appreciate it. Got it to .004 with two new shims and one perfectly flat one reused. Thanks again. |
good work
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CoastalAirCooledVW
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Joined: September 02, 2012
Posts: 1882
Location: Mckinleyville, CA (Humboldt County)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I am setting my end play right now for the first time. Im using a digital gauge. While I was at my local VW mechanic who is a former VW technician and he said to check the end play at TDC for #1. Is this important? Or does the position of the pistons not have any effect?
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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It shouldn't matter at all but I like to reset and confirm my first measurements were accurate before buttoning it up for the last time, even better if it's in a different crank position that before.
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gears
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Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Why are you concerned with the end play? .006" in a used engine is excellent.
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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X2 gears-
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:34 am Post subject: Checking Bearing Thrust |
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| Busstom wrote: |
As was suggested, before putting effort into the end play, first determine if the thrust bearing (#1 main) is shuffling fore and aft in the case. The way to do this is, use that same dial indicator you'd be using to check the end play; set it up so that you're indicating off the flange of the main bearing (all shims removed, looking at the spooned notches that Tcash describes); take a thin block of wood, and tap the main bearing towards the pulley-end of the case, tapping firmly but carefully around the perimeter of the bearing flange (don't hit your indicator!). Then, without touching anything else on the engine, zero your dial face, then take a mallet and slap the crank pulley bolt on the other end of the engine. This will give it a good shove, and if the thrust cut (the #1 main bearing saddle/shoulders) is going bad, you'll see the needle move/change on your dial indicator. There shouldn't be ANY movement in a perfect scenario.
Here's a pic of me doing the exact same job on a type 1 engine.
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| Busstom wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Your excessive end play is probably caused by the thrust bearing moving around in the case. This can not be corrected by reshimming. If you try to do so you will lock the bearing to the flywheel-crank assembly and will likely destroy your engine in very short order as a result. You will just need to tolerate the excessive endplay until rebuild time. |
This^^^
So that three thousandths you see on my indicator pictured above? I have to add that to the 0.003 end play I'm shooting for when I put it back together, so overall end play detected will be 0.006" even though only three of that will be from the flywheel...the other three will be from that loose main bearing, I'm not doing anything about right now (I have another project on the burner). |
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Kfred09
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Joined: July 09, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: North Hollywood, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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Sorry for digging up an old post, but I was unsure if my issue warranted creating ANOTHER End Play post.
I got the motor out of my 1979 Westy 2L to replace the clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing, mainshaft seal, and while I was doing that I noticed that Pilot Bearing was non-existent (with the exception of the the single band that I spent 5 hours trying to pop out with grease before I gave up and cut it out with a dremel.  )
I replaced the pilot bearing with the one that was in the kit, and when I threw the flywheel back on (torqued) I decided to check the endplay because it has never been checked since I have owned it (11 years, with me having another daily driver taking up most of the mileage).
The results I got have me very nervous that something somewhere is wrong.
I used this method
I am getting .0155". 
I tested this with several different methods of pushing and pulling the crank as described on the forums and in this link that asiab3 posted http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=12721&p=216430
The only variant I get is that if I rotate the crank a bit and check again sometimes I get so much resistance that when I push the pulley the readings are inconsistent.
So my questions are.
1. Is it possible that I installed the pilot bearing wrong and that is what is causing the excessive endplay? Or maybe it is the wrong pilot bearing all together?
2.Is there a way some of that bearing has stuck itself onto the flywheel side and I am just not seeing it? (The Pilot bearing band I had to cut off earlier fit so snug before I thought it was machined into the crank)
3.If none of the above things could be a problem, is this amount of endplay too excessive to be fixed with shims? (For reference I do have 3 shims currently installed. I am getting a digital caliper tomorrow to tell me their sizes)
Here are some other pics that might help in some way.
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jdedini
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Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 146
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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Did you try the bread trick with the pilot bearing? It worked like a charm for me.
Was your endplay measurement taken with or without your existing shims installed?
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Justin
79' CA FI Tin Top Camper |
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Kfred09
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Joined: July 09, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: North Hollywood, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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I did not try the bread trick. By the time I was done messing with all that grease I went straight for the dremel. 
The measurement was taken with all three shims on. |
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jdedini
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Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 146
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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There’s no secret to putting the pilot bearing in properly. As long as it’s seated all the way in you are good to go. From your pictures, yours appears to be in correctly.
I recently checked my endplay after 10 years of not being checked and mine was out about about as far as yours. I did the math and ordered the correct size thicker shims from bus depot and went on my way. Everything seems ok so far.
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Justin
79' CA FI Tin Top Camper |
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Kfred09
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Joined: July 09, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: North Hollywood, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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| jdedini wrote: |
| There’s no secret to putting the pilot bearing in properly. As long as it’s seated all the way in you are good to go. From your pictures, yours appears to be in correctly. |
Well that is a relief!
Thank you! I will definitely order some shims then. I am still worried there might be a problem though.
I have been trying to diagnose some performance issues and thought this may be the cause. I know my clutch was slipping so thats at least one problem fixed.
My oil pressure readings have also been really low, but if I adjust this endplay that could help that issue, right? That isn't too much to shim? The Bentley doesnt even list a size of shim that would correct it enough... |
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jdedini
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Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 146
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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Having correct endplay should increase oil pressure.
You can get shims as thick as .015. When you do it, you should only be using a total of three shims.
I’d wait until you get your calipers to try and determine what combination you need for your situation. Then use the procedure in Bentley to figure out what size shims you need to get into spec.
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Justin
79' CA FI Tin Top Camper |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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if you are at .015 INCH with 3 shims what are the thicknesses of the shims? Also, when you move the flywheel, you don't pull as hard as you can - it is light to moderate pressure towards you until it stops moving then zero the gauge and push away from you. Do this several times and you'll get a feel for the freeplay.
shim 1 = ?
shim 2 = ?
shim 3 = ?
FWIW I usually take the measurement with 2 shims then figure what I need for the 3rd and do it again after I pick it.
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Kfred09
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Joined: July 09, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: North Hollywood, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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| SGKent wrote: |
if you are at .015 INCH with 3 shims what are the thicknesses of the shims? Also, when you move the flywheel, you don't pull as hard as you can - it is light to moderate pressure towards you until it stops moving then zero the gauge and push away from you. Do this several times and you'll get a feel for the freeplay.
shim 1 = ?
shim 2 = ?
shim 3 = ?
FWIW I usually take the measurement with 2 shims then figure what I need for the 3rd and do it again after I pick it. |
Not sure yet about the sizes  I will report back with the shim sizes tomorrow when the digital caliper comes in.
I think I definitely have a feel for it. If you pull or push too hard the readings become sporadic, but if you just use two hands and the Midas touch you will consistently get the same reading. At least that is what I have gathered from reading everyone's posts.
I did the measurement with 2 shims and it came out to .029", so that means that the third shim I would get would need to be .025" But they don't come that size right? So I will most likely have to replace two of them? |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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| Have you made 100% sure the thrusts bearing isn't moving axially in the case? If the bearing is moving you can not set the axial play to spec or you will lock the crank to the bearing. With a loose thrust bearing, unless you are willing to tear the engine down and have the block machined, you just have to live with excess endplay. |
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Kfred09
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Joined: July 09, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: North Hollywood, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Setting end play FAQ |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Have you made 100% sure the thrusts bearing isn't moving axially in the case? If the bearing is moving you can not set the axial play to spec or you will lock the crank to the bearing. With a loose thrust bearing, unless you are willing to tear the engine down and have the block machined, you just have to live with excess endplay. |
Wildthings: How would I check that again? Is that where I put on 4 shims (or until there should be no end play) torque the flywheel down, and then measure the endplay? If there is none then the bearing isn't moving, but if I have end play still that amount I measure is how much the bearing moves in the case? |
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