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No start fuel delivery questions
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CarstenR
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Joined: August 07, 2023
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Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:00 pm    Post subject: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

Greetings, fellow Vanagoners,

As of this past Monday, 10/2/2023 I am among your ranks, having taken ownership of a 1981 aircooled Westfalia, aka the Opa Bus (was originally restored by my father, thus the name, then given to and stripped and neglected by my niece, now back in the hands of someone who will restore and appreciate it).

For phase 1 I'm hoping to get it started- it hasn't run in several years. After checking fluids and making sure there is oil, the Opa Bus turned over but showed no signs of wanting to start. A quick shot of starter fluid under the air filter achieves a short energetic running of the motor. This tells me I have air and spark, but have a fuel delivery issue.

I have purchased a new filter and pump and the associated gas hose since I do not know how old either of these items is. I have also ordered a brass 3/4" to 5/16" adapter because the new fuel filter I got has a 5/16" end while the pump has a 3/4" end (as many of you know from using the bigger filter to replace the white cube filter). Before installing the new pump I tried to confirm that the existing pump isn't working. For starters(no pun intended), I confirmed that after sitting a couple of days there was no sound from the pump when turning the key on- I understand that the pump should run for 2-3 seconds to pressurize the system, right? Again, this is a 1981 aircooled, so I'm not sure whether that should happen on my Westy. In addition, it was impossible to tell whether the pump was making noise as my wife turned over the engine and I sat underneath listening and feeling for any signs of life.

Next I checked the voltage at the pump with my wife again turning the key to on and then turning the engine over. There was no voltage to the pump until she turned the engine over, when I saw the voltage jump to about 8 volts. Again, this is not with the engine running, just turning over. So now I have two questions:

1) Can anyone tell me whether the roughly 8 volts is what I should be seeing at the fuel pump with the pump connected? I guess I was expecting 13.1V, the voltage of the battery, though of course the battery was also under heavy load from the starter.

2) Should I disconnect the pump and check the voltage again? If so, any ideas what I should be seeing when turning over the motor?

3) Is there any way to 'simulate' the Opa Bus running and see what the voltage at the fuel pump is?

4) Can I just run a wire from the battery to the pump to both check the pump's operation as well as possibly get the vanagon running?

5) Are there other things I should check before doing any of the above? FYI a full replacement of all lines and hoses is planned, but it would be nice in the meantime to be able to move the Opa Bus in and out of the garage on its own power.

Although I spent time in the 80's wrenching on cars, I'm very new to the Vanagons (especially air-cooled), so any suggestions are appreciated.

Thank you in advance!

- Carsten
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Carsten Ramcke
Allen Park, MI
1981 Aircooled Westfalia: the 'Opa Bus'
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

I believe the air cooled Vanagon functions like the Bay Window bus when it comes to the fuel injection. The fuel pump will not run just by turning the key on, but requires that the engine be cranking and/or there is enough intake air flow to open the vane in the AFM.

Once the engine has been cranked briefly you can crack open the test port on the fuel rail and a small amount of fuel should be forced out under pressure. If you have pressure the pump pretty much has to be working.

If you van sat for a long period the injectors may be stuck shut. Add fuel injection cleaner to you tank and then supply power to the fuel pump to circulate the fuel through the system, then after letting the engine sit for an hour or two the injectors MAY decide to fire.

Do you have a points style distributor? If so your ignition points may be corroded and not passing electrons.
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CarstenR
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

Thanks, Wildthings, I appreciate the reply. Since I can get the engine to fire with starter fluid at the air filter box I'm pretty sure my limitation at this point is fuel delivery from the tank, or the AFM. I'll test the fuel at the port though- that's a good suggestion to see if any fuel is making it that far.

- Carsten
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Carsten Ramcke
Allen Park, MI
1981 Aircooled Westfalia: the 'Opa Bus'
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CarstenR
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

Oh, and thank you for the confirmation that my 1981 doesn't pre-load the fuel system when turning key to 'run'. That helps too!
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Carsten Ramcke
Allen Park, MI
1981 Aircooled Westfalia: the 'Opa Bus'
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CarstenR
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

Good evening, all, and greetings from a snowy Allen Park, Michigan. I have an update and question on the Opa Bus (1981 Westy) fuel issue: After purchasing the GoWesty fuel filter upgrade kit I removed the fuel line from the tank and...

...nothing came out. I had put 5 gallons of fuel in the Opa Bus by hand so I knew there was gas in it. But nothing came out of the tank line. I tried to blow the line clear with an air compressor but it was SOLID, as in the gasoline had turned into varnish and had solidified. That tells me the Opa Bus had been sitting for at least a couple of years, I guess.

Long story short, I removed the tank (and yes, the fuel looked and smelled like varnish) and have replaced all the hoses and fuel expansion tank lines and valves, along with the fuel level sending unit. I'm ready to put the new tank in and connect up the hoses and give it a try, but I'm wondering what I should do to 'prep' the engine for the first attempt.

My question is as follows: What should be my process to prime the system, so to speak, so I'm not cranking the engine for several minutes waiting to get the fuel pressure up at the injectors? Should I jumper the fuel pump to the battery first, and let it run for a minute or so, then reconnect to the relay? Maybe leave the return line off the tank and catch the returning fuel to make sure I have the lines 'ready'?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Carsten
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Allen Park, MI
1981 Aircooled Westfalia: the 'Opa Bus'
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

that's a good question and you're being rightfully cautious, Carsten.

the problem is that same varnishy fuel is in your lines, the distribution manifold on each bank, and in the short lines to the injectors. be prepared for some grinding and gnashing of teeth.

i would start hopefully. put a 2X or 3X concentration of fuel injection cleaner in your new tank. fill it or at least 10 gallons with non-ethanol fuel. key on but no crank 10x times or jumper the pump to waste. this runs the pump briefly and will push old fuel out of the lines. BUT it won't flush out fuel from the injector stubs. then try starting it. if you are lucky, it'll fire up and push the old fuel out and the injectors will operate.

if this fails, just cut to the chase and remove your injectors, send them out for cleaning, and try it again.

that varnish is nasty stuff. as the old saying goes... Dilution is the Solution to Pollution.
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60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com


Last edited by DanHoug on Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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E1
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

I’m a water-cooled guy, but can say it takes less cranking than one might think to prime the pump, filter, and lines to get fuel all the way to the injectors.

I’ve never tested fuel pump voltage, but 8 doesn’t sound right. You might remove each fuel pump wire, and wire brush-clean the terminals and the chassis to discount loss of power there.

I would also load test the battery to make sure it’s within maybe 10% of the CCA listed on the battery label or on the maker’s website. The load test measures cold cranking amps and is far more valuable than just static voltage.

But if you don’t have a load tester, most parts stores can do this. An instantaneous alternative is test the voltage on the battery while your wife cranks it, it should never be below 10 volts but more like 11 to 12 while cranking.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

If the fuel in the tank was a gummy mess........

One could expect the fuel in the fuel lines to me likewise
PLUS
The injectors are probably gummed up as well.

I would renew all the fuel lines and send the injectors out to be cleaned.

As mentioned, the fuel lines will fill with fuel almost instantly upon turning the key.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: No start fuel delivery questions Reply with quote

Maybe add a bottle of FI cleaner well mixed into 5 gallons of fuel into the tank and then remove the plug from the test port on the fuel rail and connect a hose that will dump into a fuel can. Remove the cover and filter element from the air cleaner and with the key in the "ON" position use a pencil or other wooden dowel to open the door in the AFM, this should cause the pump to run and the lines to be flushed. Maybe run a 12 ounce of fuel through the system.

Now give starting the engine a try. Even if the engine starts you should add additional FI cleaner for the next tank or two of fuel. Adding something like Marvel Mystery Oil can also help the injectors function well.
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