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Ethanol?
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JerryMCarter1
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Quote
"the only gas station in town has only ethanol."

Where are you ?

grandpa here
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saulverde
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

didget69 wrote:
gimpy60 wrote:
CAN I GET A LOCK ON THIS SHIT OR NOT?


X2 - this pseudo-science is annoying...


What pseudo-science exactly are you talking about?

All I brought up were compression ratios, if you can compress the fuel air mixture more then you can collect more energy from the force that it creates. This is where ethanol picks up some headway and it is precisely where an engine optimised for ethanol would pick up on the power loss inherent in the chemistry of the two fuels.

I don't know what is so bothersome about merely discussing how to optimize your engine for a different fuel.
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Inane Cathode
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saulverde wrote:
didget69 wrote:
gimpy60 wrote:
CAN I GET A LOCK ON THIS SHIT OR NOT?


X2 - this pseudo-science is annoying...


What pseudo-science exactly are you talking about?

All I brought up were compression ratios, if you can compress the fuel air mixture more then you can collect more energy from the force that it creates. This is where ethanol picks up some headway and it is precisely where an engine optimised for ethanol would pick up on the power loss inherent in the chemistry of the two fuels.

I don't know what is so bothersome about merely discussing how to optimize your engine for a different fuel.


Because there's alot of people like yourself that understand the details of it, and a great many more that don't, and don't have the sense to keep their mouths shut about things they dont understand, electrolysis machines evidence of such.
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gimpy60
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not condeming anyone for the discussion, I am saying that it doesn't belong in this forum. There is engines & tech. where ya'll can rant on this all you want. If we want to know what kind of fuel to put in our bugs then we can go there & find out. Next thing you know there will be religion & politics cause someone put a Jesus or Obama sticker on his bumper......jeez, let it rest. Evil or Very Mad
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saulverde
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm ordering some information on ethanol conversions, there is supposed to be a section dedicated to aicooled vw's I will update with what I find.

If there is another thread with all this information in it please let me know. I will post there.

This one was the most aptly titled and easiest to find.
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saulverde
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The information I got was as followed

Fuel used: 90% ethanol 8% water 2% gasoline
The water is from only being able to distill the alcohol to a certain concentration without other additives.

Compression ratio: 9:1
Achieved by flycutting the head.

Carburetor jets opened up by about 40%

They didn't seem to have any heat issues at that compression but the fuel mixture should be able to go a bit higher. The installed oil temp sensor to monitor heat.

Problems:

Stumble on accelerate

Trouble with cold starting due to the poor vaporization of the ethanol

Solutions

They isolated the accelerator pump circuit and fueled it with a small auxillary gas tank. This helped by providing straight gas on cold start.

To help vaporize the ethanol at colder temps they also rigged the warm air intake on the breather to remain permanently open during the colder months.

They also rigged a custom intake manifold warmer that routed exhaust gas through the intake manifold in addition to the stock intake warmer attached to the outside of the manifold.



I think the pump could be adjusted to provide more fuel. Dual carbs would have shorter manifolds and most likely stay warm enough for cold weather driving.

Any ideas on warming the manifold/throttle body initially to assist with cold starting? I think routing an auxillary tank seems like alot of complexity to get around the problem of the system being cold.

**EDIT**
Sorry I was kinda out of it last night doing math and what not. I left out a piece of information. The carb float slowly gained mass with the ethanol fuel, they had to swap out floats about every six months. They alternated between two floats as with time the float would "dry" out when not in contact with the fuel and return to original mass.


Last edited by saulverde on Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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jbrandt01
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now it get interesting...

I wonder if airplane carbs would be a good choice, they have integral heaters to prevent this exact problem.
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saulverde
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I could find it looks like most use heat off the engine, be it oil or air, to keep the aviation carbs from freezing.

Does anyone know of a way to electric pre-heat the throttle body?

I know there were some arctic bugs made for an expedition back in the day, equipped with skiis and what not. Does anyone know if there were accomodations to warm the intake before starting?
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jbrandt01
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a little far fetched but this site outline how to use the element from an old stove as a biodiesel heater. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/646102678/m/9411095211
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saulverde
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw some inline fuel heaters used for diesel engines, they looked promising but the fuel in the bowl will still be ice cold. There are some that have intake warmers that have heater coils that poke into the manifold like a spark plug to keep the air warm. They also restrict a good bit of airflow.

I am not a machinist, electrician or anyone else qualified to design anything but this is what I came up with. So please take it for what it is, a rough idea that I think might work. I would like the insert to have internal fins to help dissipate the heat internally and provide a vortex motion to help keep the fuel in suspension. I'm not versed with CAD so I left those out. It would also make the internal piece hard to manufacture.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The insert would be initially coated with a thin layer of thermal epoxy made to dissipate heat.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OB-100_OB-200_OT-200&nav=TEMC06

After coating the center core you could wind the core with a lenth of NiChro wire to act as the heating element. Once the wire is in place another coat of epoxy and let it dry. Then heavy epoxy and seat the two pieces together.

Initially you would need to set up a variable switch to regulate how much power goes to the heating element. I don't know the voltage range we would need for the switch, that is dependant upon the guage and length of the NiChro wire. I would test lengths and voltages before expoxying the parts together.

I personally would also set up a temp guage on the completed unit as well as further down the intake. This will give you a good idea of where the power level needs to be and when to shut the unit off.

After you have a good set of information you can final tune, add a controller\thermostat and remove the manual switches.

I don't have access to a machine shop and I live in Alabama presently so this is a long term project on my end. I am still planning in my head for the ethanol engine.

Basic build details.

Aluminum case for the added strength.
Pistons 85.5mm
Heads cc'd to 45cc
Deck 1.1mm
Crank 88mm
Theoretical Compression Ratio 10.84:1

Other Option

Aluminum case
Pistons 94mm
Heads cc'd to 45cc
Deck 1.1mm
Crank 84mm
Theoretical Compression Ratio 12:1

I have no idea what cams to use at that compression ratio.

Input on anything I said in here for or against will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading my wall of text.
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jbrandt01
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say this, we seem to be thinking on the same page. I guess I should have specified that I read the article in terms of harvesting the heating element to wrap around the throttle body/manifold.

As far as something creating a vortex, I had recently re-read the complete HotVW's mileage motor build and then came to the realization that a solution for fuel atomization you suggested already exists.

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?name=Jet-A-Vator&a...63fc88d510

I run kadrons and I was thinking about milling down the venturi and wrapping it with some type of heating element (electrically insulated with epoxy).

For the engine, I have a guy somewhat locally that has a Brazilian Puma GTC that was once an alcohol burner. I'm going to mimic that.
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saulverde
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are indeed on the same page. I was thinking the same about the venturi earlier today. I gave it up as I did not know what guage wire I would need and I was concerned about messing up the dynamic of the venturi by epoxy, wire then more epoxy. I figured by putting an insert under the carb I could leave room in the body of the stand for varying wire sizes.

The berg thing looks cool, I would love some explanation of the science behind it. It mostly looks like a restrictor plate. I was trying to add some turbulence without affecting flow too much, but berg's is pre-made and bolt in. I wish someone could explain how it works without giving away trade secrets.

I specc'd that part out to fit with dual kadron 40's

If you are looking for an easy heating element.
http://www.heatersplus.com/nichrome.htm
similar to what is in your toaster at home. As I said I haven't hunkered down to learn the math to figure out guage, length and voltage. When the time comes I will prolly just buy some and experiment unless you get the answer first, then I might just cheat off your test.

Be sure to let us know what you learn from the Puma. Thanks.

After thinking about it the berg device is looking pretty good.
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mightymouse
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post ressurected!

I have a question for everyone. As i have never run Ethanol in ANY of the engines ive ever built or owned.
I have my motor....1679. Web 119 cam. 8.6/8.7 to 1 cr. Stock intake port matched to heads, and solex 34 pict4 carb. It runs great now, but now that ambient is 110 in vegas i think it would benefit from running E85 as the head temps would stay cooler than they currently are.
Would it be OK to convert to E85 for summer, and then back to gas in winter?
Would the performance suffer that much because the CR isnt high enough?
I mean it looks to me like its just some jet changes a float adjustment and timing adjustment. And id be on the road.
My fuel system is perfect, all new, electric pump etc.
So....85 idle, 190 main, and go from there. I even have the bung in my header as i wideband all my motors. So i will put on the wideband when i switch over, and go drive.
So my only worry is... my CR. will it be OK samba alcoholics? Smile
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dakdak
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mightymouse wrote:
Post ressurected!

I have a question for everyone. As i have never run Ethanol in ANY of the engines ive ever built or owned.
I have my motor....1679. Web 119 cam. 8.6/8.7 to 1 cr. Stock intake port matched to heads, and solex 34 pict4 carb. It runs great now, but now that ambient is 110 in vegas i think it would benefit from running E85 as the head temps would stay cooler than they currently are.
Would it be OK to convert to E85 for summer, and then back to gas in winter?
Would the performance suffer that much because the CR isnt high enough?
I mean it looks to me like its just some jet changes a float adjustment and timing adjustment. And id be on the road.
My fuel system is perfect, all new, electric pump etc.
So....85 idle, 190 main, and go from there. I even have the bung in my header as i wideband all my motors. So i will put on the wideband when i switch over, and go drive.
So my only worry is... my CR. will it be OK samba alcoholics? Smile


I inadvertantly put E10 (10% Ethanol) fuel in my fuel tank, and noticed a drop off in performance and mileage. Even though my engine is a stock 1200 40HP, there was a noticeable difference down to about 24mpg. In the last tank I filled up with 95 fuel and there definitely was a pick-up in extra mileage and performance. Back up to just over 27mpg (238 miles on 34 litres of fuel). When I filled up today, I went 98 premium. I will see how that goes. For the extra few cents a litre, the mileage pays for itself, and the car feels like it runs "cleaner" and smoother as opposed to the E10 fuel.

If you can use the higher octane fuel, I would use it.
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mightymouse
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody? cmon somebody surely knows. Smile
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mightymouse wrote:
Nobody? cmon somebody surely knows. Smile


Ive been asking the ethanol questions for some time now. Now that I am forced to run E10 the mpg and power SUCKS. I did also notice a higher CHT reading as well, I guess due to the stock compression ratio and stock jetting.

I am thinking to be able to run the E10 (and soon E15) 11:1 compression is needed as well as fatter jets. Ive noticed a BIG difference from summer to winter here and picked up 4-5 mpg in winter.

I have been using a fuel additive in the summer to help but I think its only a bandaid.

I am thinking about cutting the cylinders down to bump up the compression for summer with bigger jets then dropping the engine for winter and adding regular jets and a copper gasket to lower the ratio again. I figure I have to do this until E85 is available everywhere and then I will leave the high compression ratio set up be.

Out of all the "gurus" on TS, John from AC.net is the only one with info and experience. Just like Raby people argue with him even though they have no experience and again causes someone with great info for our community to go silent.

I am thinking of different fuel for an aircooled engine and have thought about a propane turbo but E85 turbo might just be the way to go.
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burdpete
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run E-10 when it is 6-8 cents cheaper than unleaded. I notice no performance change but I do notice a gas mileage change. I know you can have some vapor lock problems with non-fuel injected engines, although I have never experienced this. Its not rocket science. If the price difference overcomes the mileage difference I run it. If it doesn't I don't. It has nothing to do with octane because our stock engines do not need and will not benefit from high octane gas.
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have applied for a permit for production of ethanol based fuels with the US Government. If the permit is granted we will move forward with a distilling operation to make our own fuel, on site and do so legally at volumes up to 10,000 proof gallons per year.
This fuel wll be used to power 4 different competition VW and Porsches in 4 different racing venues as well as powering the vehicles of mine and my employees.

We plan to use our farm property to produce the majority of the necessary ingredients to produce the fuel through distillation. From our own well water, to corn and etc we'll be racing on fuel we've produced 100% at our facility.

I should have the permit in less than 60 days and I already have a refulx still planned, just waiting on the word GO! I am not doing this for the "go Green" factor nearly as much as to further develop engines to run on ethanol and to be totally self sufficient.
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NICE! A legal still...I mean fuel production plant!!
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Stuggi
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates on the distillation permit?
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