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Steve O.
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Utah
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 Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:40 am Post subject: 1982 Vanagon L - Why water-coolers be hate'n? |
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Just post'n my new project. Business write-off!
Day 1. Bought it from a postman. My bro chilling in the two-seater!
First night with the Van. Took my girl to the Hotel Monaco!
Two-seater out. Fresh rug! |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32637
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Nice looking van. Air-cooleds are fine as far as that goes but if you are actually asking why people do not prefer them, the answer is simple. There really isn't anything to like about the stock air-cooled power plant at this point in time. It was a cutting edge design 75 years ago... By today's standards it is EXPENSIVE, higher maintenance, weak, unreliable and inefficient. The only thing it has going for it is nostalgia. |
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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mine was fine on back roads in the summer time.
but taking a spring roadtrip on the interstate thru NY's small highway hills and it was sitting on one hand to keep warm at 43mph..
add in what Libby said above that it's far from cheap to give a full engine R&R and I swapped into a inline 4cyl. but I had Diesel van parts from previous projects.
an aircooled tin top in nice working well cared for order as a summer only rig sure lov'n the pure simplicity.
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onemat
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Joined: November 17, 2011
Posts: 418
Location: Ashland City, TN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Nice Van. What's not to like? I too have an aircooled, and I love it. I've had it for 15 months and it's been reliable. I've only been on the side of the road once for about 30 minutes because the alternator went. I have nothing against waterboxers at all. I wouldn't mind having one. I don't understand the "mine is better than yours" attitudes that some people have. If anything the last of the aircooled Vanagons are historical just for the fact that they were the last of the aircooled.
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'82 Vanagon GL with 2.0 4-speed. Long term plan is to turn it into a camper.
Last edited by onemat on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dhaavers
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7757
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Nice, clean van! No hate here - hope it serves you well.
Personally, I'd like it better if you swapped the wheel covers for
something with less of the "Plymouth minivan" vibe... just sayin'...
'Cause we're curious...what's the business?
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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WestyBob
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Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| It was a cutting edge design 75 years ago... By today's standards it is EXPENSIVE, higher maintenance, weak, unreliable and inefficient. The only thing it has going for it is nostalgia. |
X2
I like all vw vans/buses equally but wish the OP wouldn't use that type of header to draw attention to their thread and subtly try to restart the air/water arguments. Not good form. 
The bus in the pics look very sano, very nice. 
The primary issue was the poor torque/weight ratio which caused VoG to pull the ac engine after only a few years.
That is .... there's nothing wrong with the engine if you like it and there's noting wrong with the vehicle. They were just poorly matched. 
Now I thoroughly enjoyed my ac 2.0L in my old '79 Bay bus.
Last edited by WestyBob on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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And when the time comes, you can drop in a Porsche 911 3.0 SC engine and 5 speed transmission and be the envy of most of us. Looks like a nice ride. Enjoy.
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joetiger 
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Joined: January 27, 2005
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Location: denver
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| onemat wrote: |
| I don't understand the "mine is better than yours" attitudes that some people have. |
Agreed. They're Vanagons, for heaven's sake, and part of the allure to me is that they're non-competitive vehicles by their very nature. We're all in this together, as far as I'm concerned. 
Nice ride! I like the tin-tops better with the second row of seats installed, though. It makes them more utilitarian-looking.
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Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| I have no hatred of air-cooleds, but I certainly understand the attitude of 'mine is better than yours', especially when someone ASKS why you think yours is better than theirs. The thread title is most certainly trolling and the 'mine IS better than yours' attitudes in response are only accommodating. I've owned and worked on each of the stock Vanagon engine styles. The first vehicle I owned was a '74 Westy and the first vanagon I owned was an '81 air-cooled. I haven't arrived at my current opinions through inexperience. I've rebuilt several 1.6 air-cooled and Type-4 air-cooleds. All three of the vanagons I currently own are very much better than any stock air-cooled. I could TOW an air-cooled vanagon and have better performance than the air-cooled had under it's own power. While towing it, I would simultaneously get better fuel economy with less chance of a mechanical failure. In the unlikely event of a mechanical failure, I would be able to fix it for less money with parts that are more readily available... |
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geo_tonz
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Joined: August 01, 2012
Posts: 1472
Location: Courtenay, BC, CANADA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| I have no hatred of air-cooleds, but I certainly understand the attitude of 'mine is better than yours', especially when someone ASKS why you think yours is better than theirs. |
Exactly. It is obvious to anyone that with ANY car company improvements are made as the years go on and thus each successive model would be better than the last. What possible argument could you pose against that? Give it a shot!
Yes people personally like or prefer certain older models more than certain new models for various reasons but does that mean it's better? Sometimes companies accidental take a backward step back with "improvements" that don't pan out but the intent is always there to improve on the previous model. Therefore, in the Vanagon world...80-83's aren't as good as 83.5-85's that aren't as good as the 86-91s. The step up in performance and comfort from 83 to 83.5 is far more drastic than the step up from 85-86, which makes the early air cooled Vanagons the least desirable for me. The middle years are probably most attractive because the later years have been hyped up more, driving the price of them up.
Driving my van up steep hills in the winter with the HVAC managing to keep the wind shield and part of the side windows clear I don't say to myself: "I wish I had less power and colder air blowing at me!"
That said, I don't hate the air cooled Vannys; they get waves just like any other German van and they can be very nice looking rigs, like yours is (driving it a lot in the snow in Utah?). Some folks really like the air cooled simplicity and live where winter isn't cold and wet or can afford to garage for the winter; good on them! I just wouldn't want one in my driveway. If you think I hate them because of that then that's your issue.
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rryyoobbii
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Joined: September 27, 2013
Posts: 64
Location: Vancouver Island
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Aircooled hate seems arbitrary. 80-91 Vanagons are all awesome
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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm on here quite a bit, and I can't remember any real heated debates about air-cooled vs. water-cooled. It seems like there's more disagreement about the virtues of various conversions than about air-cooled vs. water-cooled.
Most of us Vanagon owners respect the air-cooled models because they represent the heritage the Vanagon evolved from as well as the earliest form of the vehicle we all like so much. I don't think there's much hate out there for them.
I think an air-cooled 4 speed passenger van actually performs adequately. But with an automatic, or when burdoned with the weight of a camper package, things change quickly. I think the biggest problem with the air-cooled models at this point, is that it has become very difficult to come by a good rebuilt engine for them. The price of a rebuilt air-cooled engine along with the question about its durability is what usually motivates people to repower them with a water-cooled alternative.
Speaking for myself, seeing any Vanagon going down the road makes me smile. It doesn't matter to me whether it's powered by an air-cooled Type 4, a Wasserboxer, a Zetec, or even a Corvair engine. It's the basic vehicle I like. I don't care so much what's under the lid.
David |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to agree with David.
I was working for VW when the watercooled everythings came along. I never got used to standing in coolant. Air cooled engines were neat and tidy to service.
I did see more than my share of melted pistons in air cooled vanagons. You need to stay on top of timing, fuel mixture, and the general air tight seal of an air cooled vanagon engine compartment. The enforced emissions of the early 80's were just too much to keep the air cooleds living long lives. As you lean out the mixture you increase combustion temps as well as ambient temps around the running engine. The WBX was a way to effectively remove this unwanted heat. I'd want to add some gauges personally.
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61Scout
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dspieg
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Joined: March 12, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: No hate here! |
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I've had both types of Vanagon so can speak from experience. My first Vanagon was an air-cooled '83 I bought new late in '82. I drove it for ten years and put 120k miles on it. It melted a piston at 95K miles so I had the engine rebuilt. Only sold it because I had a neighbor family that was about to move to Central America and they wanted something roomy, reliable and relatively simple to take there, they bugged me for a year to sell them the car so finally I did.
I now have an '86 water-cooled Vanagon (also a passenger van model) with about 130k miles, engine was rebuilt right after I bought it about two years ago with 116k miles.
Obviously I liked my first, air-cooled Vanagon; in fact it's the only vehicle I've ever owned for ten years. But I feel the later model van is far superior in those areas that were weak on the earlier car, those being (of course) horsepower/torque and heating/defrosting; of which the air-cooled Vanagon had essentially none of either. And my current Vanagon has air conditioning (which works well) while the earlier one just had its vent windows. At the same time I'm happy to report that VW did NOT mess up any of the Vanagon's good qualities -- the great chassis, the amazing roominess and versatility of the body, and so forth.
As far as maintenance, I've found that both types are relatively expensive for parts and service, and neither can be worked on by Joe's Garage down the street. |
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photogdave
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Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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I read a lot about how "underpowered" the air cooled Vanagons are supposed to be compared to water cooled but I don't get that impression in real life.
A good friend of mine has 1980 Westfalia that's been in her family since new (it's the car she learned to drive with). It was the first Vanagon I ever drove and still drive it now and then. We go on camping trips and ski trips together and they always keep up with the rest of us no problem. When I drive it, it feels quite responsive and has good torque. It gets up to 100 kph and can cruise there easily.
It's on its third motor since new. The most recent was put in about two years ago; they bought a used motor, rebuilt it and dropped it in, and off they go!
They always give me the gears when I complain about yet another coolant leak, and tell me to smarten up and get an air cooled van!
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kamzcab86
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Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7925
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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What ^that means: We're all one big family, and respect should be given to all, regardless of cooling methods.
Congrats on your new obsession. 
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1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
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scobax
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Location: Bend, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Just the other day we were driving around our WBX'er and lo and behold, there goes an aircooler! fairly rare 'round here and in January to boot. "Holy crap" sez the wife, "It looks c-o-l-d in there!" Nothing but smiles and waves from the other driver, a hearty soul indeed.
Later that day, in a rainman-esque moment when I was supposed to be listening to my darling bride but still contemplating that old '81 we saw, I errantly muttered, "I think we need an aircooled van". That was not the right answer to her query and so, this has become the default for "you're not listening!"
Example;
Wife: "Sweetheart, we need to pick-up some milk and eggs at the store. Can you do that later?"
Me: "what's that hon?"
Wife: "I think we need an aircooled van..."
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hans j
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