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Rear Diagonal (radius) arm bushing replacement
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blue77bay
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:24 am    Post subject: Rear Diagonal (radius) arm bushing replacement Reply with quote

has anybody renewed the rear a arm bushes ,i bought bugpac bushes p/n 6557 sold to me as bus bushes but they dont look as they are wide enough and the catalog doesnt state bus or beetle .i dont want to pull it apart without the correct parts to put it together again
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brenthughes
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have the same general question.

It appears the bushings you ordered are urethane, which may not be a good idea even if they do fit. Check here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=152520&highlight=control+arm+bushings

I ordered part # 211-501-121, which look different than the ones that are installed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I expect there to be some change in shape once they are squeezed into place, but it seems they would need to change more than I can imagine actually happening. But, this is the same part number as the old one, and the inner metal bushing is the same length on both of them.

This end is what concerns me the most:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It seems like the bushing would have to be pushed through a little extra to get the widest part of the tapered portion even with the end of the metal opening, then pushed back into place. I'm guessing this is when this end of the bushing would lose its taper and flatten out like the original.

If my bushings were in bad shape and I had nothing to lose, I would just try it and see what happens. But I would hate to ruin these bushings that have a little life left in them and botch the new installation.

Maybe someone who has done this before can provide a few installation tips and reassurances that this funny looking bushing actually does fit.

Thanks,

Brent Hughes
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blue77bay
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well there seems to be two types of people ,those who and those who dont like urethane ,and i am in the former ,i put urethane thru the a 71 super and its great ,it really takes away all the slop in the suspension,it handles so much better now its all urethane and as the "A" arms are so important i could not forsee any problems ,the most important thing is to use moly grease on installation
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Dogo
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

Has anyone tackled this, that can provide a play by play? The Bentley say you can't replace the bushing itlself because it's vulcanized to the arm, that the entire arm must be replaced??
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

I've owned buses for over 30 years. I've never done this,seen it done, or heard of it being done. That said, I learn something every day here on the samba.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

I change them whenever I replace torsion bushings, why not?, it's all apart anyways and they do make a difference in the camber afterwards. They push out easily with a small press or even a large vise and the new ones go in without a fight if you use a little silicone spray.
You'll need a short length of muffler pipe to support the arm that the large end of the bushing can just pass through, after that it's all rather self explanitory.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

Cool Mark. Where can I get the new rubber bushings? My right rear wheel has a camber problem.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
I change them whenever I replace torsion bushings, why not?, it's all apart anyways and they do make a difference in the camber afterwards. They push out easily with a small press or even a large vise and the new ones go in without a fight if you use a little silicone spray.
You'll need a short length of muffler pipe to support the arm that the large end of the bushing can just pass through, after that it's all rather self explanitory.


Yes, its really pretty easy and the shape of the molded rubber actually helps it to center correctly

These are virtually identical in every way to the A-arm bushings in mk1 and mk 2 water cooled cars...just slightly larger in OD.

I have only changed one set on a bus...or actually helped.... long ago...but the operation was identical to my mk2 water cooled Golf.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a Golf bushing. You can see the similarity. It also has a specific direction of movement which is less obvious than the bus bushing. This bushing pushes in with the right end in the picture first.

I have a press and I actually do not use it for this type of bushing as its awkward and lacks control.

I use a rig just like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Grade 8 long bolt with thick washers a piece of plumbing nipple. Its quick, incremental and easy to control on the work bench.

As BD notes....use silicone spray...NOT WD-40. use something like either one of these
https://www.zoro.com/crc-elctrcl-silicone-lubrcnt-...lsrc=aw.ds

http://www.sustainablesupply.com/CRC-Food-Grade-Si...aQodJbIEAQ

Ray
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

I last got them from CIP a few years ago, appeared to be good quality, no complaints from any customers yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

Thanks

211501121
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

It's interesting to me that some of the rubber bushings age, dry up, crack and fail while others don't. I really inspected these bushings on my bus. Loaded, unloaded, I couldn't get any excess movement from them. They still looked fine and are centered when the bus is on the ground. The same on my 69 convertible.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:


I use a rig just like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Grade 8 long bolt with thick washers a piece of plumbing nipple. Its quick, incremental and easy to control on the work bench.



Ray


Nice implementation....
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

The easiest way to remove the old ones is to use a propane/MAPP gas torch & heat the inner sleeve until the rubber around it liquefies, then just push it out with a screw driver, then the bushing comes right out.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
The easiest way to remove the old ones is to use a propane/MAPP gas torch & heat the inner sleeve until the rubber around it liquefies, then just push it out with a screw driver, then the bushing comes right out.


X2 if they are vulcanized.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
It's interesting to me that some of the rubber bushings age, dry up, crack and fail while others don't. I really inspected these bushings on my bus. Loaded, unloaded, I couldn't get any excess movement from them. They still looked fine and are centered when the bus is on the ground. The same on my 69 convertible.


In general....the bonded bushing material that came....from the factory.....in virtually all VWs from type 4s, through type 2s through watercooled cars......was just superbly made and designed.

These parts lasted a very long time. From what I have found over the years removing and reppacing them from various VWs..... is that when they fail.....if they were OEM parts (and outside of a couple of sets of urethane I have worked with).....its not PRIMARILY a material QUALITY issue.

These bushes are not only bonded to the steel tube.....they are pressure injection molded around it. Thie makes the density of the rubber very high. The durometer of the rubber is higher than just a plain cast piece of rubber. Typically basic bushing material that is not high pressure molded is about 55-60 durometer.

These bushings are 70-80 durometer. The main things that make some of these bushings fail more "completely".....

1. Because these rubber bushings like any other rubber parts change a bit with age.....they take compression set. The slight increase in durometer with age is not a problem....as long as the rubber is excercised. Vehicles that sat still for long periods.....years.....especially in high temperature environments.....and then driven hard again when a new owner acquires the vehicle......can end up looking the worst with cracks and sagging.

2. These wishbone bushings ....just like the control arm bushings on watercooled cars.....are designed to have the end faces of the steel bushing tubes rotate with the rubber bushing when the suspension flexes. In other words the bushings are not designed to be "wound up".

On a few bushings like this i have found where the cross bolt is grossly over-tightened and there is some rust present.....and the faces of the bushing tube are siezed against the yoke.....it shreds the bushings in a radial pattern because it winds them up as the suspension rotates.

3. Bushings that have been submerged in water or had lots of very wet environment are just like those in #1 with a lot more weatyering cracks and rot.

The only trailing arm bushings i have found .....so far.....that are actually designed to to have the center steel bushing locked tight so that the rubber part of the bushing is designed to "wind up" with spring tension......is on the type 4 cars. Its a really unique part. You can see it here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=680245

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

2. These wishbone bushings ....just like the control arm bushings on watercooled cars.....are designed to have the end faces of the steel bushing tubes rotate with the rubber bushing when the suspension flexes. In other words the bushings are not designed to be "wound up".

I have to disagree on this theory. The center steel bushings are NOT supposed to rotate on the bolt in the housing. These are supposed to be tightened so that they do not move or rotate IN the position that they are normally designed to rest at while the vehicle is on the ground under its own weight. These bushings fail prematurely when replaced due to the fact that they are usually tightened with the suspension in the full droop position while the vehicle is off the ground, then once the vehicle is set back down, the bushings are then "wound up" while the vehicle is resting.

When installing new bushings, leave the center bolt slightly loose until the vehicle is on the ground (or on blocks under the tires so that you can gain access to the bolts.) and then tighten the bolts while the vehicle is at normal resting height.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

2. These wishbone bushings ....just like the control arm bushings on watercooled cars.....are designed to have the end faces of the steel bushing tubes rotate with the rubber bushing when the suspension flexes. In other words the bushings are not designed to be "wound up".

I have to disagree on this theory. The center steel bushings are NOT supposed to rotate on the bolt in the housing. These are supposed to be tightened so that they do not move or rotate IN the position that they are normally designed to rest at while the vehicle is on the ground under its own weight. These bushings fail prematurely when replaced due to the fact that they are usually tightened with the suspension in the full droop position while the vehicle is off the ground, then once the vehicle is set back down, the bushings are then "wound up" while the vehicle is resting.

When installing new bushings, leave the center bolt slightly loose until the vehicle is on the ground (or on blocks under the tires so that you can gain access to the bolts.) and then tighten the bolts while the vehicle is at normal resting height.


Ok....then question.....not saying you are wrong or I am right.........but....because I find that:

A. 90% of them that I have seen....mind you though I have only pressed out one set of bus bushings....I have traded and removed numerous trailing wishbones on buses... . 90% of them DO rotate.

B. They have no grippers/knurls on the ends of the center tubes to prevent them from rotating. The technology for that.....like the type 4 vehicle bushings....dates to 1967. Why would they not have that function?

But....if what you said IS correct....as I mentioned in the thread about type 4 bushings......what you noted is ALSO a failure mode for type 4.......that being that they are tightened up while in the fully extended position.....which winds them up when you put them on the ground.

However.....unlike the type 4 bushing which has ribs that do not allow the bushing to rotate in the housing....which IS what shreds the bushing.....the bus is a straight, clean bore at least from my recollection.
Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

I remember on the Porsche's resting the vehicle on its wheels before torquing the diagonal arm bolts. For the reason mentioned. If the bushing was torqued in the dropped position on the lift. The bushing would exceed its flexing capability and fail during service.

The Bentley says to support the diagonal arm to its unladen position. Which contradicts what I have been taught. Or read in a manual. I have referred to those from time to time.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With the M12 bolt torqued to 58 ft lbs. I would think the bushing inner sleeve would not be going anywhere.

Tcash
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

The center sleeve does not rotate if torqued correctly. If it is loose enough to rotate then it is loose enough to shift in/out & alter alignment (not to mention a lot of noise) & eventually wallow out the sleeve/bolt/frame until failure due to fatigue or loss of the fastener.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: rear A arm bush replacement Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
I remember on the Porsche's resting the vehicle on its wheels before torquing the diagonal arm bolts. For the reason mentioned. If the bushing was torqued in the dropped position on the lift. The bushing would exceed its flexing capability and fail during service.

The Bentley says to support the diagonal arm to its unladen position. Which contradicts what I have been taught. Or read in a manual. I have referred to those from time to time.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With the M12 bolt torqued to 58 ft lbs. I would think the bushing inner sleeve would not be going anywhere.

Tcash



.......which is just like the VW type 4. The bushing is PUROPOSELY locked to the mounting yoke. But the reason for this on a type 4 is because the cross bolt that goes through the bushing tube.....is an eccentric bolt that controls toe-in. The bolt has to be unmoving.

Unless its changed over the years.....the bus does not have this function on the bolt that secures the inner end of the arm.

But hey.....VW has done stranger things. Of course the Haynes manual notes that it pivots around the bolt.....not flexes the bushing. What does the Bentley say?

Ray
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