Suicide Doors for T3s

[DuncanS]

Suicide doors for T3s

Being a normal Vanagon nut job who can’t let factory equipment go unchallenged, I have long wondered about the possibility of suicide doors for the front. Remember that our beloved barn doors of the 60’s rear side door was exactly that. I searched the Samba and other sites and Mr. Google seems to have never heard of anyone who has either done this or even posted a comment about the idea. But there have been a hundred other projects that took less time and produced quicker results so the whole idea has been tabled for quite a while. Recently I did a front bumper modification —see the thread; Bumper/License plate and more. At the end, I found myself looking at the gap of the bumper side and matching door trim to see what might be done to clean that area up. I came up with an idea which although is shown in photos at the end of the thread didn’t come to pass, it regenerated my interest in pursuing the suicide door idea as this could provide a simple solution to the bumper/trim gap issue.

The first step was to go to my old poor dead tin top and play around a bit. This is what happened.

For visuals, I moved the door handle, but the latch is not functional. I wanted to know how it looked and would feel in opening the door so that’s why I bothered to move it,

With sheet metal screws I put the hinges in while the original hinges and door latch were operational. A wood wedge under the top hinge was required as the panel curves and there would have been bad alignment—no allignment. Then I pulled the pins, unbolted the hinges, trashed the original door retainer and removed the latch staple from the “B” pillar. Then put the pins back and was surprised that the door didn’t even sag when opened.

Since the car is now being used as a scrap metal dumpster, I pushed aside a wad o’ crud and transferred my passenger seat back to the old car. Opened the door, grabbed the “A” pillar handle and swung in. I couldn’t believe the experience. I had assumed that it might be awkward and that would be the end of the exercise. However, much to my surprise it was far easier to get in than with the conventional hingeing. Because the footwell step is now just right in front of you, the center of gravity of your body is over the step, so there is no hanging on to the handle while awkwardly swinging your butt over the seat. Wonderful. So………………….

[djkeev]

Interesting idea.....

Go for it!

I see significant hurtles ahead to make it work but if you've got the time.......

Dave
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[MarkWard]

Maybe for a show van, but the factory probably spent a lot of time designing the doors to resist opening in a accident. Why not Gull Wing doors while you are mocking up? Good luck with the project.
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[Abscate]

It’s a secret bucket list item to do a suicide front nose on a Split, preferably a Samba....
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[ALIKA T3]

[rmcd]

Excited to see the progress. I will learn from this for a future project.

I dislike rear windows as it is wasted space (inside and outside) and for the same reason I dislike the side slider door. Older buses have a split side door that opens out as you describe. The inside of the door becomes usable space and one recovers more usable space outside on the passenger side.

Maybe a retirement project for me?
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[DuncanS]

Dave, you certainly are a supportive help. When I think of all that you did on your 86 Westy, this is nothing, As I said in the first post, if the ergonomics were only slightly better or worse in terms of vehicle entry, then that would have been the end of it. But no, it was a huge improvement so I'm just going to keep exploring until there is either a stopper or I get bored, whichever comes last.

In terms of a front end crash, we all know when we get in that if there are any "incidents" we will be the first on the scene of the accident. But that doesn't deter us from enjoying the driving experience. In terms of engineering a crash, I'm not sure they did very much in the first days of the T3. Certainly not like what happens for US autos today. I know that the front end of our vehicles are incredibly strong. There is a ton--well, not quite--of folded and welded structure up there protecting us pretty well. 30 years ago I hit a Porsche at his left side head light and the point of impact on me was under the head lights on the passenger side. He had total electrical failure, was chained to a pickup also without lights on the other side of the road. The Porsche was at a 45º angle to me and dead in the road with 2" of wintry slush on the road surface. I was headed down hill and with the chain to the left and a steep drop-off to the right, I slammed on the brakes and slid into him at about 20mph. There was nothing forward of his driver's side "A" pillar and the passenger head light. My factory sunroof '87 wound up with a 12" diameter dent about 2" deep in the center as total damage to me. His--scrap.

I guess I'm not any more worried about a door flying open than i am losing my legs in a head-on. In terms of the factory engineering, remember these are the same guys who's suspension, brakes, engine and so on are the first things we want to rip out and upgrade. All of us know about a bunch of stuff--such as keeping the front heater fan motor bearings alive--that we think they just did flat out poorly. This is why we have such a great site with people helping each other work through these issues.

As I said earlier, I'm a nut job with a penchant for solving problems that don't exist. This is one of those non problems, but I can't help myself from thinking about them in any case.

Duncan

[RainierSyncro]

[ALIKA T3]

[DuncanS]

Wow. I kinna hoped that we might get some wild stuff happening here. It looks like Mark used the same hinges I did except his are a final. In trying to figure out exactly what I would use it turns out there are only a couple of choices. Exposed, as almost all automobile hinges were up until the 60s,

or concealed. which is what everyone has today. With concealed hinges, there are also two options. The first is to use what we all have on our front doors now where the pin and pivot point is behind the panel surface. In order for this to work, the edge of the door has to be able to move inward as the door is opened. To convert a Vanagon door to this configuration would be a huge amount of work and require that the "B" pillar be considerably modified along with the back edge of the door tin as well. The other kind of concealed hinge works on a quadrant so the door or trunk lid (this is where they are used now) raises away from adjacent body panels. One of the primary gains in doing this is that the door seals on three of the edges which can remain stock. Doors have two types of seals--crushing in as the panel closes, and pinching to the front as where the hinges currently are. By using a quadrant hinge for this application only the forward seal would need to be modified and it would be straightforward to do.

There is a different hinge which although concealed operates through a complex geometry that behaves as though the pivot is in front of the surfaces. These are Soss hinges. Anyone who doesn’t know about these unbelievable bits of engineering should check them out. Talk about guys that can’t seem to find their niche and fit in, this guy is the president of the club. Look him up. Worth a couple of minutes.
https://www.soss.com/history.html
There are two issues in trying to use a Soss here. First because of the inward curve to the body work, the top hinge has to have a pivot point farther away form the surface. There would be no problem using a Soss for the bottom, but the top would not be able to work without having the door tip in when opening which would mean fighting gravity in both opening it and being kept open. The other is that a fair amount of modification to the "B" pillar and back edge of the door would be required.

[DuncanS]

ALIKA--Your video was terrific!! The best part was that of all the driver-forward vans, the T3 offered the greatest protection. There is NO question that the door with its air delivery side beam is of great structural importance in a corner impact. When trying to solve a problem I often resort to Einstein. Part of his analytical process was to use "thought experiments". (I once tried to read the Theory of Relativity and couldn't get past the first paragraph.) So the "thought experiment" in this case is do the crash test again without any door on at all. Obviously, there is now little to prevent the "A" pillar from collapsing backwards bringing all the dash components including the steering wheel into the driver's body--not torso, because be then it would be a body.

So, thanks to you and the realization that the door must stay in position I would do the following: At the forward surface of the door edge, I would create a very heavy ( maybe ½" plate) that would have two tubes welded in longitudinally in the approximate location of the current hinges. Within these 1" id stainless steel tubes I would have 15/16"stainless steel rods that would slide in and be held lightly in place with a stainless wiper spring going into a shallow detent. All this heavily lubed to allow free movement forward. There would be a matching plate with holes welded to the rear surface of the A pillar. In a crash, the mass of the pins with a pointed end to help locate them would drive them forward into their matching holes and retain the door in place--I'll admit it's only a thought experiment, an actual one would be needed. Of course, the problem might be that in a crash, crumpling could create misalignment and prevent the pins from engaging.

[DuncanS]

This is what Soss hinges looks like. They are made in all materials--including stainless--and sizes from jewelry box to fireproof doors weighing hundreds of pounds.

[Abscate]

Quick exit safety feature


Link

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[gears]

Threads like this = why I love Samba :^)
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[DuncanS]

Ya know--I always wondered about the point of having my seatbelt on when I have #1500 of tools, a 9' fiberglass dinghy in the back. plus a bunch of other crud. Do I really want all that stuff trying to tattoo my neck, or is better just to go out through the windshield?

[Abscate]

[Ahwahnee]

[DuncanS]

Perhaps I have given the impression that safety is just a minor issue with me. Not at all. Tongue-in-cheek is pretty hard to convey in writing. I was stunned and then laughed out loud at the driver's exit through the windshield. Look at his amazed expression standing to one side after it was all over. I buckle up every time and try to secure my loads as well as possible. I've converted all of the seals belt hard points to accept shackles for tie offs. As I said earlier in voicing my conviction that the front of the T3 is built very strongly to protect the passengers, I do indeed believe that the structural engineers have done a great job with our health in mind. If I seem to discount some of the other engineering, it's only with the relatively small things that bother all of us. It's a stretch to think my car will ever have its doors converted due to the 12 pages of single spaced projects that are also on the list. If I put a storage box under slider floor I can do something different with my car. If I change the way the front doors open instead of releasing the latch and getting in, I will be able to....................release the latch and get in. So the priority has to be down around page 7 or so.

But in any case, I'll post some of the thought experiments I've done and some more research as well. Who knows? Maybe somebody else would like to do this and it might save them some time. Or be horrified and scrap the idea altogether and save them their life.

[jimf909]

[DuncanS]

Was going to take the 1500 watt inverter to Tired Tan/Beat Beige the donor car the door tests were done on and with the 12k angle grinder and cut off tool harvest the hinges to see what they would look as exposed. Some 3 D viszuals. Maybe since it would make the project so much easier, it would be worth the minor bumps. But then decided if that's all I'm interested in at this stage, I could whittle up some pine, paint it and stick them on. Will try to do that in the next couple of days. But in the meantime I got some cereal box cardboard, scissors and and played paper dolls. Drew up sections of the B pillar, door and slider to get some perspective. With pins and rotating some drawings on thin paper, finally established where the pins needed to be for some quadrant hinges. Turned out that there isn't a whole lot of choice. Too close to the door and the arc swings the door tin into the pillar. Too far and the pillar isn't deep enough to hide the quadrant. So after a week or so of messing around for a half hour here and ten minutes there, I came up with:

The reason the arms are curved is so that they move through a hole in an unchanging relationship to the opening. You don't want a huge hole that would allow cold air to get in. Yes there is an inner seal, but it's poor. The idea would be to make a gasket with felt that would wipe the hinge arm and seal the hole completely.
The hinge arm is the grey and the slider and front doors are abbreviated in white. B pillar white too. There are two because of the tumblehome on the door and pillar. (A nautical term indicating an inwardly curving surface.) So although the pivot points appear to be different in relation to the pillar and door, they are lined up vertically according to the world.

And here they are in the open position. I don't know how to make a video or automate them to show them swinging so use your imagination--they work. The grey parts would be cut from 3'4" plate so the arms are 3/4" square in section. Because the door is so far from the pin, they will want to sag so thus the beef. I've colored the door seal gaskets black and you can see how they would work without modification. Assembly and mounting next.