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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:50 am Post subject: Starter Won't work after a long drives |
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I did a couple of long highway trips this past weekend and a few times after I stopped the bus wouldn't start as in the starter would not turn over. I had to crawl under the bus with a screwdriver to short the terminals on the starter to start it. A few times I was stopped for 15 minutes and a few times I was stopped for an hour or two. I read the Bus Against The Wall thread and was wondering if the grease in the solenoid may be the problem. You would think once the solenoid got hot the grease would thin out and not cause it to stick. _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like you are on the right track. Got the hot start problem!
Either replace the starter, clean up the old grease, or install a quality relay, in a dry place. |
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jpstewart19 Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2011 Posts: 253 Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I had the same issue a while back. I installed a hot start relay, which didn't fix it. Also swaped the starter with a known good one that resolved nothing. In the end it was the ignition switch in the column. It was cracked and causing intermittent issues which seems worse after driving a while...good luck. _________________ 1985 Vanagon Westfalia Subie
1972 Super Beetle Convertible
1990 Vanagon GL "Winston" (Sold)
1980 Vanagon Westfalia “Rusty” (Sold)
1982 Vanagon Westfalia “Rusty II” (Sold)
1977 Smurf Blue Campmobile (Sold) |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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I forgot to mention... the problem still persisted after I cleaned and tightened all the wires going to the starter and cleaned and tightened the engine/trans to frame ground strap... it actually goes from the frame to the bottom starter bolt. _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I'd pull the plug off the bottom of the ignition switch and jump between the red and red/black wires next time it happens, it won't run like that but if it cranks the switch is the cuplrit. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: |
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I too am leaning towards the ignition switch on this one. If the solenoid was bad normally a screwdriver jump won't fix it on a VW starter - one has to whack or tap it to get it unstuck. The OP is also not complaining that it turns over slow so that probably eliminates the battery. That leaves the switch.
If you want you can solder a long speaker wire to a 194 bulb, tape it at the bulb and put alligator clips on the end. Hook one clip to the spade coming from the ignition and the other to the frame. Put the bulb where you can see it. Turn the key and see if it lights up. if it does then the solenoid is getting voltage. If it doesn't light up replace the switch. |
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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3793 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:58 am Post subject: |
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We had a hot start issue over a summer of trips (nothing quite like lying in a puddle with rain lashing down doing the screwdriver start), and over the winter when I had the engine out I took the starter off, replaced the bushing and took the solenoid apart (as apart as I could without disconnecting any wires) cleaned out all the old grease and re-greased it. (also cleaned all the contacts on the starter, the tranny ground strap connection and replaced the positive battery cable)Have not had the problem again. _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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aerosurfer Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012 Posts: 1602 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:55 am Post subject: |
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A new positive battery cable and nice clean contacts on the starter has since cured my hot start issues _________________ Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
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wihr Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 344 Location: PORTLAND, OR
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Mine did that until I cleaned the ground strap between the transmission and frame. It has not given me any problems for the last fifteen years or so. _________________ WIHR
1970 Campmobile "Van Ordinaire"
2009 Lincoln Town Car "Behemoth"
1969 Lambretta 150 DL "Nina"
1962 Matchless G 12 CS 650cc |
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Kiptere Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2013 Posts: 419 Location: Houston
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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It's the starter bushing. It gets hot and its geometry changes clamping down so hard on the starter that it can't turn. Get a starter for an auto stick bug. They don't have starter bushings. _________________ 62 Bug
70 Bug
68 Bug
70 Bug Vert |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50347
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Kiptere wrote: |
It's the starter bushing. It gets hot and its geometry changes clamping down so hard on the starter that it can't turn. Get a starter for an auto stick bug. They don't have starter bushings. |
That would be pretty bad advice if he is talking about his '79 which would have come with an 091 tranny like all '76 and later US Type 2's.
FWIW, I cleaned and relubed the solenoid on my starter, circa 1993, and it is still working fine today. Of course the battery cables, ground strap, and ignition switch have all been well maintained and/or replaced as needed over the years. The starting system responds to good maintenance better than just about any other system on a vehicle. |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Kiptere wrote: |
It's the starter bushing. It gets hot and its geometry changes clamping down so hard on the starter that it can't turn. Get a starter for an auto stick bug. They don't have starter bushings. |
That would be pretty bad advice if he is talking about his '79 which would have come with an 091 tranny like all '76 and later US Type 2's. |
That and if it was the bushing it wouldn't start with a screwdriver either.
I'll try pulling the plug off the ignition switch and jumping the red and red/black wires the next time it happens. For the time being I added wires to terminals 50 & 30 on the solenoid and fed them through the bulkhead under the Z-bed. I put a push button switch on the wires so if it happens again I don't have to crawl under the bus with a screwdriver. _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Joey wrote: |
I put a push button switch on the wires so if it happens again I don't have to crawl under the bus with a screwdriver. |
Woooo....deluxe!, I've used a single wire from 50 to back near the + battery terminal, your setup doesn't even require going outside, sweet! _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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bobnorman Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010 Posts: 1389 Location: Newfoundland
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Kiptere wrote: |
It's the starter bushing. It gets hot and its geometry changes clamping down so hard on the starter that it can't turn. Get a starter for an auto stick bug. They don't have starter bushings. |
This would be my guess too. I had the same problem with a 63 bug (converted to 12v), changed the starter to an auto unit and the problem went away. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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bobnorman wrote: |
Kiptere wrote: |
It's the starter bushing. It gets hot and its geometry changes clamping down so hard on the starter that it can't turn. Get a starter for an auto stick bug. They don't have starter bushings. |
This would be my guess too. I had the same problem with a 63 bug (converted to 12v), changed the starter to an auto unit and the problem went away. |
because you changed the solenoid with it. Besides an 091 combo 2L won't take an autostick starter. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
bobnorman wrote: |
Kiptere wrote: |
It's the starter bushing. It gets hot and its geometry changes clamping down so hard on the starter that it can't turn. Get a starter for an auto stick bug. They don't have starter bushings. |
This would be my guess too. I had the same problem with a 63 bug (converted to 12v), changed the starter to an auto unit and the problem went away. |
because you changed the solenoid with it. Besides an 091 combo 2L won't take an autostick starter. |
Or perhaps all the terminal disturbing had something to do with it?, next time try removing and reinstalling the same starter, you may get a pleasant suprise _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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i have a 78 automatic that i just put a new ignition switch, starter, and cleaned all connections and had it charging perfectly, and starting every time. guy took it on a trip and after highway miles, had a hot start problem. he made it home by whacking the starter....but its a NEW starter! any ideas? _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12722 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
i have a 78 automatic that i just put a new ignition switch, starter, and cleaned all connections and had it charging perfectly, and starting every time. guy took it on a trip and after highway miles, had a hot start problem. he made it home by whacking the starter....but its a NEW starter! any ideas? |
New as in "Euromax?" _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
i have a 78 automatic that i just put a new ignition switch, starter, and cleaned all connections and had it charging perfectly, and starting every time. guy took it on a trip and after highway miles, had a hot start problem. he made it home by whacking the starter....but its a NEW starter! any ideas? |
yes - two possibilities
(1) it is a rebuilt starter you mean? They test them and then if they work ship them, They don't rebuild the solenoid if it pulls in. Guy who owned it before you probably had the same issue if it is rebuilt. Have to replace the solenoid with a new one or lube it.
(2) your neutral switch could be going bad |
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GeorgeO. Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2010 Posts: 881 Location: Menifee, CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I've experienced this problem and it came down to the water level in my battery. Drive for any extended period of time and it would not start. Low levels of water in the battery can quickly discharge a battery to where you loose your cranking amps. I've experienced broken battery cables as well. As long as you don't have grease or grime on your starter post and connections, you may want to try there. |
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