Where do they go on my exhaust?

[Rhinoculips]

I'm stumped,

I purchased a complete exhaust kit from Volks-Cafe for my '89 Westy. It came with Copper nuts and zinc(?) plated nuts. Where do I use the copper and where do the zinc ones go?

Many thanks in advance.

ps - I hope to switch them out for stainless in the near future, but I need the car now.

[tikibus]

Copper nuts go from the the heads to J-junctions. Anywhere a nut hits a bolt. There is a reason for this...

Rust.

Zinc-

Rust.

Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust....

Use Your Head.

See?
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[Rhinoculips]

Another stupid question then...

If copper is better for rust, then why do they not give you all copper nuts?

[Terry Kay]

How many copper nuts did you get, and how many zinc plated steel?

Just curious on this one---

In the time it took you to post this question, and wait for the answer's, you could have been to the hardware store & back and had the stainless fastener's in hand---

Just thinking out loud---
_________________
T.K.

[snowleopard]

[funagon]

Those copper nuts from Van-Cafe are also ovalized, so that when you tighten them on they are forced into a round shape and grip the threads. Less likely to loosen with all the engine vibration.

[Lanval]

Terry and Tiki,

I'm wondering if you could add a bit to your replies ~ not sure about the OP, but I'm not aware of the issues surrounding the use of copper/zinc/stainless on an exhaust system -

Stainless makes the most sense to me, but why did the OP get copper and zinc stuff with his kit?

Thanks,

Lanval

[bucko]

[Terry Kay]

My question is --

Why did he get any nuts at all with the kit---??

I asked how many of what, and that would explain things a bit better.

He'd have to get the bolts and nuts for the flanges where the pipes connect, but usually nothing else.

The fact he got any copper at all, is why I'm curious.
_________________
T.K.

[Rhinoculips]

To tell you the truth Terry, normally I would use common sense and use the number of nuts I received and work out the most logical set up. Thing is, I got 13 copper nuts. The heads down to the y junction would need 12. That leaves me one extra. THAT is why I was a little confused.

As for stainless, yes they are more resistant to rust, but I have also heard they are more likely to loosen up as well. Hmmm........

As for spending more time posting my question then it going to the store and getting new ones, I for one have no other transportation. Secondly, the nearest store that carries stainless is over 50 miles away! Logistics of finding a friend that wasn't working the 9-5 job that could give me a ride or barrowing a car just didn't not work.

Terry, don't be so high and mighty! I think I will keep in mind your harsh responses given through out THE SAMBA before I ever order any thing from you. I will look else where for my coolant pipes and propane valve!

[Terry Kay]

<<< normally I would use common sense and use the number of nuts I received and work out the most logical set up. Thing is, I got 13 copper nuts. The heads down to the y junction would need 12. That leaves me one extra. THAT is why I was a little confused.>>>

The fact that you got any connector's is a miracle.
Last set of new pipes I got only had the union bolts.
From VW you'd get none.
You got 13 of what?
Copper or zinc plated?
And No bolts--just the nuts as you made mention of in your first post?

Huh---

<<As for stainless, yes they are more resistant to rust, but I have also heard they are more
likely to loosen up as well.>>

I don't know where you heard that, or who told you.

It depends on the grade of stainless fastener's your buying.
Buy the Tiawan brand X bolts & nuts, get the Tiawan quality.

They're on all 3 of my VW's--never have loosened up.

<<As for spending more time posting my question then it going to the store and getting new ones, I for one have no other transportation.>>

Planning ahead and having all the parts lined out first before you start the job helps a bunch.

<< I will look else where for my coolant pipes and propane valve>>>

OK--
NBD--
_________________
T.K.

[Christopher Schimke]

I think the reason the stainless hardware got it's poor reputation for exhausts is twofold.

One reason is that stainless threads gall (a process where bits of the protective oxide outer layer actually shears off and binds with other bits to lock the two peices together) if not used with a thread locker or anti-sieze compound (which provides lubrication between the two friction surfaces). Stainless on stainless and stainless on aluminum are the worst since both of these metals rely on a thin layer of surface oxides to protect themselves. Once the stainless bolt/stud/nut seizes due to galling, the choice of removal often comes down to cutting or breaking the bolt off. Although the stainless bolt/nut looks better in the intrem, when it comes time to do maintanence or removal, they are often times no better than standard carbon steel since rusting and galling both lock two together in an often permanent manner.

The second reason is that standard hardware store issue stainless is usually only slightly better than a grade 2 bolt when it comes to strength. Grade 2 bolts have a minimum yield strength of 36,000psi (the point at which the bolt will deform) and 60,000psi tensile strength (the point at which the bolt will break). It would be tough to get enough torque out of grade 2 bolt to hold two exhaust flanges tightly together when you consider the heat cycles that they go through so it's not rocket science to see that a cheap hardware store stainless would perform in a similar manor.

There are high strength stainless bolts available that have yield strength of 180,000psi and 200,000psi tensile strength. This is stronger than a grade 8 bolt (yield 130,000psi, tensile 150,000psi).

Even with a high strength stainless bolt, you still need to use a good quality (the best you can get your hands on) anti-sieze on the threads or the threads will gall when torqued down.
_________________
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[hiram6]

Loogy always has the most well reasoned and informative posts!

Here's to Loogy.
_________________
1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited

You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning.

[Dogpilot]

Loogy is totally correct. In turbine exhaust system, where high frequency vibration kills everything, we use very high strength stainless. THe big thing is they are actually silver plated to keep them from seizing. They also have 12 point heads so you can actually get a grip on them. We discard them after one use, silver is wasted when you remove them. They are real cheap too.
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

[Terry Kay]

Huh.

I guess Merc Marine, Grey, Volvo/Penta, & OMC thinks a bunch diferent than Loogy.

Wada they know anyway---??

They ain't into Vanagon's.
_________________
T.K.