| Author |
Message |
SyncroGhia
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
|
 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| bluefirefly wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
It has to have enough power to counter act the cost. This is more important to me than 5mpg.
There's nothing worse than having spent £££ and hour after hour only to think... it doesn't go well enough.
MG |
Says the guy with the S8 Bluestar!  |
Looking at your signature, how is your G60 T3 going?
If we take 10,000 miles as a base I come up with the following figures.
My Tristar with an Audi 2.3 20v 5 cylinder engine does 20-24 mpg (that's imperial gallons). The cost for the conversion was £2,000 in parts.
When running the 2.5TDi in Limey, I managed to get the very best of 36mpg and a worst of 28mpg. I would regularly get 30-32mpg. The cost of the conversion was over £5,000 in parts.
I'm not including my time but taking into account that any TDi conversion would include a gearbox rebuild, the time for the conversion took twice as long.
Petrol (unleaded 95 octane) is 126.9 pence per litre and Diesel is 133.9 pence per litre. These are the cheapest prices as of this week (4.8.14).
That works out at £5.77 per gallon for petrol (that's 4.546 litres per gallon remember) and £6.09 per gallon.
Taking a mid figure from my experiences of 22mpg for the Tristar and 31mpg for Limey. It costs the following to run each vehicle for 10,000 miles.
Tristar = £2622.73
Limey = £1964.52
A difference of £658.21.
If I drive 10,000 miles a year in either vehicle (unlikely) it would take me just under 4 years to offset the extra cost of the TDi engine conversion.
If you drop the number of miles that you expect to drive around to say, 2,000 miles a year - not completely unrealistic if you just use your camper for holidays and the occasional weekend away, you're looking at it taking just under 19 years!!
Ok if you're doing 20k a year in your T3, this will start to make more sense but as I found, the more torque that you run through your gearbox (especially from a Diesel), the less mileage you'll get out of it before you have to rebuild it... again! AND when you have to, because of the TDi specific parts it'll cost you another £1,500!
If you are sensible, you'll fit a dual mass flywheel with a TDi conversion but that's more money and I'm wandering off the subject... ahem. You can tell that I'm not very pro TDi
Feel free to pick holes in my calculations 
MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bluefirefly
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
| bluefirefly wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
It has to have enough power to counter act the cost. This is more important to me than 5mpg.
There's nothing worse than having spent £££ and hour after hour only to think... it doesn't go well enough.
MG |
Says the guy with the S8 Bluestar! |
Looking at your signature, how is your G60 T3 going?
MG |
Doing well thanks.
Getting about 22MPG (imperial) on mountain road, between 4000 to 6000ft, no issue at all, the engine got about 150,000 miles by now with big tires (215/85-16). Too much stuff in the engine bay between the second alternator, the charge cooler and oil cooler but it is another story....
We had to replace the transmission after 200,000 miles (lost 3rd and 4th), it will go to Matt at AAtrans for rebuilt but we have time as we bought another trans that seats in the van now.
I am following all the stuff you are doing, this is impressive.
Next time we're back in Europe, we'll try to pass by and visit you.
Jerome
_________________
86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SyncroGhia
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bluefirefly wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
| bluefirefly wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
It has to have enough power to counter act the cost. This is more important to me than 5mpg.
There's nothing worse than having spent £££ and hour after hour only to think... it doesn't go well enough.
MG |
Says the guy with the S8 Bluestar! |
Looking at your signature, how is your G60 T3 going?
MG |
Doing well thanks.
Getting about 22MPG (imperial) on mountain road, between 4000 to 6000ft, no issue at all, the engine got about 150,000 miles by now with big tires (215/85-16). Too much stuff in the engine bay between the second alternator, the charge cooler and oil cooler but it is another story....
We had to replace the transmission after 200,000 miles (lost 3rd and 4th), it will go to Matt at AAtrans for rebuilt but we have time as we bought another trans that seats in the van now.
I am following all the stuff you are doing, this is impressive.
Next time we're back in Europe, we'll try to pass by and visit you.
Jerome |
Any photos of the install? I've always thought about a G60 engine install.
MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2325
Location: Southeast Kentucky
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hans j wrote: |
| At about 70k a timing belt will be required as well. And looking into the future, pumps and turbos seem to last anywhere from 150k to 200k miles. |
-The Timing Belt change interval is 100,000 miles. And, I know of numerous TDI cars that have gone well beyond 120k miles (definitely not recommended)
-If properly maintained (fuel filter changes, no gasoline mistake, etc.) the Injector Pump will go 500k miles (my 2000 Jetta TDI has 347k miles on all the major OE components and runs just fine, 50 mpg tank after tank). Occasionally, an IP will have an O-ring or the shaft seal to begin a leak. It is a rather simple and inexpensive procedure to repair!
-Treat the engine nice, use correct synthetic oil, the Turbo will last 500k miles as well............. same comment as on my Jetta!
The early TDI engines thru the ALH (year end 2003) are very tough engines with a lot of diversity with respect to mods and tunes!
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
zeohsix
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2012
Posts: 501
Location: United States
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dealing with evap emissions plumbing, catalytic convertors, efi wiring......on my 1.8T engine conversion..... I'm thinking I should have gone MTDI as these are emission testing exempt! I would probably have been on the road months ago with a MTDI swap. My only concern with high output TDI motors is transaxel life expectancy.......
_________________
I'm Cheap! I'll build that Syncro Westy myself and save money but, my labor is "FREE" especially if I ever go to sell it! One thing is I will know the quality of the parts and labor that went into the build and rest better when I'm actually driving said Westy down the road! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2325
Location: Southeast Kentucky
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In my opinion, any conversion that results in an engine more powerful than the OE, the transmission gearing needs to be upgraded to taller 3rd and 4th gears. So, while doing that, replace all those components that wear out or were weak straight from the factory.
- Replace bearings (I replaced all but the big pinion bearing)
- Replace brass syncro rings
- Replace Third - Fourth hub (known to break with OE engine)
- Replace shifting forks if worn
- Replace reverse gears if showing lots of wear or was jumping out of gear
- Inspect the Ring and Pinion. The Bentley says to mark the adjusting collars before removing. Going back, adjust slightly tighter due to high mileage and/or wear (that's what I did).
I did the above and basically 30,000 miles later the transmission seems to be just fine!
There's been numerous Bus transmissions used in Rail Buggies with powerful engines.... just saying!
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is a partial cut n' paste from another forum:
I just got back from a nearly 1700 mile family trip along the PNW coast. My observation is that the AAH (Audi 12v V6), while powerful and never lacking in on demand oomph, frequently requires downshifting in order to gain access to the torque. Anytime we dropped below 3k in fourth on any kind of a hill, it would immediately require a downshift or fall flat on its face. It was constantly hunting for the right gear to suit the engine output and load. If you've ever driven along the WA/OR/CA coast, you'll know that it's mostly single lanes and very curvy/hilly, with a fair amount of cars stacking up behind you. I hate to be "that guy" holding things up, so I prefer to lead with distinction, which requires some diligence on that terrain. The AAH/4HP18FLA (four speed auto) combo really struggles in those scenarios, IMHO. I daily drive a 2.5L turbodiesel with a four speed auto, and it easily gobbles up hills like those in fourth, with the requirement for a downshift only when passing. I really was lusting for either an AAN (turbo gasser) or AEL (2.5 TDI) fiver during the trip, as both are in the middle of their torque curve @3k rpms.
Background: This is a big AWD car with a curb weight similar to a T3. The V6 has a torque curve nearly identical to a very popular off-brand four cylinder conversion engine, albeit with about 10% more output along each power curve. The 3k rpm figure is key here, as I want that to be roughly in the middle of the torque curve of whatever engine I opt to power a big rig like a T3.
Everyone on this site seems to focus on those big grades along major freeways, which allow you to just park in the far right lane and slowly putter or wind out the engine along at your own pace. Most of the areas I traverse are single lanes with very few turnouts to relieve accumulated congestion. As mentioned, I don't want to be the guy who impedes traffic. I want modern power, with minimal offending buzzing from high rpm huffing and puffing in the back. The only commonly available torque curves I've seen that allow that kind of relaxed motoring in a T3 are TD/TDIs, and 1.8t swaps. I would couple each with a re-gearing as a matter of course, in order to properly match them with my criteria for RPM-matching the engine to the transaxle, so as to maintain my 3k mid-torque RPM ideal. Since both engines can easily be tweaked to produce lots more torque, even the stock torque curves are just a jumping off point for customizing an engine swap to suit the tastes of the owner.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SyncroGhia
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As one of the few who has had both AAT (tuned to AEL spec and beyond) and AAN in the same Syncro 16 bus, I can say whole heartedly... The 2.5TDi 5 cylinder engine in combination with the factory design of gearbox is not a conversion that I would recommend.
The AAN however is wonderful. It goes better, has more than enough torque and revs easilyto 7k. You never have to work hard to drive it.
MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The AEL reference was in regards to the original C4 Audi we were driving on our trip. I wouldn't hesitate to install an AEL in a T3, but then again I do believe it's more engine than is required...as is the AAN. I would prefer to pair the AEL or AAN with a Porsche or Renault UN1 five speed box.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Take a look at those torque curves. See that as rpms fall from 3k, the engine torque actually increases on the TDI and 1.8t stock engines. This makes these much easier to drive under loaded terrain. NA engines simply can't match this real world performance metric. This is a driveability advantage that has to be conferred upon boosted engines.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Waldi
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Take a look at those torque curves. See that as rpms fall from 3k, the engine torque actually increases on the TDI and 1.8t stock engines. This makes these much easier to drive under loaded terrain. NA engines simply can't match this real world performance metric. This is a driveability advantage that has to be conferred upon boosted engines. |
Torque at 2k and less needs a sensible right foot thinking at the gearbox. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanonimous
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2013
Posts: 362
Location: Burien, Center of the Universe
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OK, here is my latest sort of 1st world type dilemma.
I love my 2.5 SOHC in a 2WD van. But, I want more power and will probably put a WRX engine in that van. 4 speed gearboxes are plentiful and cheap and might even go the Subaru gearbox way later.
For now I am going to leave it there because I need the van to function until I can re-power our syncro.
Now for the 4wd I know I don't want a turbo. But I also know it can use more power then a 2.5 so the question is will the syncro R&P hold up to SVX task?
How certain is it that a SVX engine will eat a syncro gearbox?
_________________
If happiness is being a mechanic, owning a Vanagon is nirvana.
Lighting upgrades: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578291 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smiro
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 113
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: 3.27 R&P |
|
|
Hello Automatic owners,
After reading this topic, I must say there are a lot of engine choices but no body has tackled the drive-line issue. The more HP you add to an Automatic VW transmission the more heat you are generating. This is due to the Torque convertor. Any motor over 120HP will require a better cooler than the factory unit and the GW cooler. That is why KEP has a larger Air cooler to replace the factory unit. GW cooler is great for their conversions but not for the 1.8T, Subaru 2.2L, 2.5L etc. Not sure about the Bostig conversions. As for keeping the R&P's lower for better fuel economy my 3.27 R&P fits the bill. Taller tires are not the way to go. There is a good write-up by Hans of Vanaru here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...;start=360
Near the bottom of page 19.
I have a 1991 Country Homes Camper with a 2.5L Subaru, automatic transmission with my 3.27 R&P and Planetary bias locker. It is so much fun to drive. I also have an external cooler with a fan and a 180 degree thermo- switch. The cooler I have is used for off road vehicles with 300+ horsepower. You can read about my R&P here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=80
and here:
http://countryhomescampers.com/products/automatic-transmission/super-flier-ring-pinion
I am now offering rebuilt Automatic transmission with my 3.27R&P installed. The information is on my site:
http://countryhomescampers.com/products/automatic-transmission/freeway-flier-automatic-transmission
Regards, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Syncrozilla
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Santa Barbara
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not sure why anyone would consider putting an SVX in now. It's super old and hard to get parts for. If you want NA power then why not the 3.0 H6 subaru? It's OBDII and everything is still available.
| vanonimous wrote: |
OK, here is my latest sort of 1st world type dilemma.
I love my 2.5 SOHC in a 2WD van. But, I want more power and will probably put a WRX engine in that van. 4 speed gearboxes are plentiful and cheap and might even go the Subaru gearbox way later.
For now I am going to leave it there because I need the van to function until I can re-power our syncro.
Now for the 4wd I know I don't want a turbo. But I also know it can use more power then a 2.5 so the question is will the syncro R&P hold up to SVX task?
How certain is it that a SVX engine will eat a syncro gearbox? |
_________________
Please do not message me on TheSamba. Use my email, [email protected] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanonimous
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2013
Posts: 362
Location: Burien, Center of the Universe
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Syncrozilla"]I'm not sure why anyone would consider putting an SVX in now. It's super old and hard to get parts for. If you want NA power then why not the 3.0 H6 subaru? It's OBDII and everything is still available.
Thanks, I wasn't necessarily set on belt driven 3.2 (although I frequent auto auctions and they do come up) and 3.0 would be a prime candidate. I was trying to find out how stock syncro transaxles hold up that kind of power (230hp +) and torque?
_________________
If happiness is being a mechanic, owning a Vanagon is nirvana.
Lighting upgrades: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578291 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2656
|
| Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Preferred Engine Conversion |
|
|
Hi fellas....
Haven't been here in many years.
I did a swap quite a while back, drove it daily for a few years and life out my truck in a garage for...6 years ?
My swap was to a subaru H6 as in my avatar. An 06 ez30r with the link g4 extreme ecu.
Ecu has been a mouse house and it's a nasty mess.
I need my truck again and want it to be my regular daily, maybe my only vehicle. So no drama easy support is needed, I work 15 minutes from peace vans so that's possibly my best answer for that.
I've decided to ditch my ez engine and either swap in a subi 2.5 or a 1.8t.
I've owned a TT and now daily is an 05 gti. 1.8t has been fine in these cars for me. I'm less concerned about a glowing hot turbo..
My truck is an 85 2wd.
Parts I have or can save is the engine adapter for subi, plus I have an rmw engine mount I had zinc plated for extra rust prevention. Low tabs for syncro are cut off and cleaned up real nice before zinc plating. AA transaxel already rebuilt my trans with all the typical heavy duty parts and swapped R&P for the EZ swap. Don't remember the numbers on that R&P.
Reasons to include the 1.8t as a choice is purely so I can get service without a vw related shop looking at me crosseyed.
Reasons not to do subi is, it's not vw I need a subi shop I like and trust plus a vw shop. That may be solved by being close to peace vans and both subi and vangons are popular in the PNW.
I'm not good at diagnosis of problems and I just can't do all the maintenance of a vehicle so I need /want a normal (sort of) relationship with maintenance support. If it's my only vehicle it'll be used for work, hauling parts to jobsite for architectural metalwork installs and I don't want to call my boss and be like...umm my weird truck won't start.
Seems like the 2.5 and other less exotic subi engine swaps would be fine here it's a pretty well established path.
Also still looking for ground clearance numbers. Due to wheel/tire/spring choice any dimensions from ground to oil pan isn't useful. Rear body skirt to bottom of oil pan is what I need. I -think- the rear skirt is the same on a 2wd van or doka. I could be wrong there.
I'm wondering about modified oil pans or adding shim to the engine hanger for a little extra ground clearance. I run carat springs now and drive in the city normally. Sometimes jobsite in early stages can be messy as well as streets in the industrial district. Some day I might try shorter springs too. I never want it crazy low just always feel more low-curious so I may try other springs some day..hence the ground clearance concern with either swap.
What I like about subi is, I like flat 4 engines. It's symmetrical more or less I just like that for no logical reason I can think of. These days both swaps seem fairly mainstream as T3 swaps go. I also really like the RMW engine hanger while H2O vanagon seems to only make hangers at lower syncro height for the sleeping bed issue which I don't have.
I can also imagine doing the subi swap myself home alone since that engine is shorter it just seems more doable somehow. But there is still the question of removing the larger EZ lump. I can't see lifting it by hand even with 2 people. I can see dropping it via chain fall to the ground, jacking up the truck and sliding it out but then it's a lump in the front yard.
I could stash it but any buyer for it would need to bring lifting tools to take it away..
Anyway, today I hope to meet and chat with an installer from peace vans to debate and inform myself more about these options.
I could afford to pay for the whole process. But I do like the idea of doing it myself and using some savings to install A/C and power door locks or other stuff. Also like the idea that having done most of the grunt assembly I would gain some experience, knowledge and driving confidence that my truck isn't powered by a fragile house of cards about to take a shit while driving across a bridge or 2hrs from home with nothing but trees on either side of a highway for several miles. Yeah I know no guarantees on that no matter what on a 35 yo vehicle but you know, confidence within reason.
So.. 2.5 subi or 1.8t vw. Due to popularity of the subi it seems fairly attractive and that may override the all vw's perceived benefits.
Having one shop support (which may not even be true) is maybe the only reason I can see for the 1.8t.
Any thoughts to add from you all ?
Thanks in advance 😃 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
|
| Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Preferred Engine Conversion |
|
|
Another option to consider:
http://www.foreignautosupply.com/engine-and-drive-...n-program/
All brand new engine and accessories from VAG. 4 years with mine and zero issues to date. Kits are 100% turnkey with everything you need, beautifully engineered. I love mine (Gas), and it's smooth as silk without any I-4 buzz.
Keith
_________________
'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2656
|
| Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Preferred Engine Conversion |
|
|
Hi thanks Keith !
Actually wrote them a week ago and no reply a yet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16494
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markswagen
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1019
Location: san diego
|
| Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Preferred Engine Conversion |
|
|
that's an expensive option though, you can have a california legal EJ25 frnaken motor fitted, for a couple of hundred more, not necessary for most, but that's a TON of $ for a kit, i have a 50° ABA, taking up space, i would like shot of.
| khughes wrote: |
Another option to consider:
http://www.foreignautosupply.com/engine-and-drive-...n-program/
All brand new engine and accessories from VAG. 4 years with mine and zero issues to date. Kits are 100% turnkey with everything you need, beautifully engineered. I love mine (Gas), and it's smooth as silk without any I-4 buzz.
Keith |
_________________
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
