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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:38 pm Post subject: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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I need to drop my front diff so I have the axles removed.
My question is driving it with Outer C.V. still in place do you remove the cage & balls as well or can you leave them in place?
I'm thinking that I can put the boot back on and plug the axle end of the boot.
The centrifugal force will keep the balls pressed outwards into the body of the C.V.
I did a test drive tonight and all seemed good so far, but this was low speed 30mph test.
Just want opinions of possible pending disaster or what you did while driving with the axles removed.
_________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed- Outer C.V. cage & balls? |
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Hmm, I would be concerned that the tires crashing over bumps would cause something to move into momentary misalignment (extreme CV angle) and grenade it. Its been years since I owned my Syncro, but vaguely recall an admonition in the factory service manual against driving without front shafts but it was OK to move around the shop. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed- Outer C.V. cage & balls? |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
Hmm, I would be concerned that the tires crashing over bumps would cause something to move into momentary misalignment (extreme CV angle) and grenade it. Its been years since I owned my Syncro, but vaguely recall an admonition in the factory service manual against driving without front shafts but it was OK to move around the shop. |
It's the same as the stub axle on the rear. As long as the shaft nut is properly torqued it should not be a problem to drive it Basically the drive axle is just putting power into it and not holding it in place. Without the drive axle torque acting on the cage & balls they are just along for the ride. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed- Outer C.V. cage & balls? |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
Hmm, I would be concerned that the tires crashing over bumps"
OK to move around the shop. |
No, you do not even want to put weight on the tire without the axle in place! That hub will pop right out of there and that's another 50 bucks for a wheel bearing! Let along having to pick the body up!
The bumps in the road- that is something to think about. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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Yes I remember that! In searching all the past threads before I posted this no one says what they did with the cage and balls! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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I think you need to sacrifice 2 outer CV's to run without axles. You cut the stub off, but leave enough "flange" from the CV side to keep the remaining stub it. You also need a couple of flats to hold it so you can torque the axle nuts.
I bet Sodo has the fine details on this. I'm interested as well. I have a pair of old CV's I can use. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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I’d remove the innards and run the bare stub. Coat it with some CRC corrosion inhibitor to prevent rust. Reassemble when you are ready. I recall you telling me the 16 has unique outers. I’d be scouting for 2 worn out outers you could carry for this type of an emergency.
Another option would be to fabricate something to take the place of the joint. It wouldn’t necessarily need to have splines to “clamp” the bearing together. _________________ ☮️ |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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tjet wrote: |
I think you need to sacrifice 2 outer CV's to run without axles. You cut the stub off, but leave enough "flange" from the CV side to keep the remaining stub it. You also need a couple of flats to hold it so you can torque the axle nuts.
I bet Sodo has the fine details on this. I'm interested as well. I have a pair of old CV's I can use. |
Syncro 16 front outer cv's are like currency. Do not bend, fold or mutilate! (I'm not going to look at that old bill tucked away in my wallet!) _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I’d remove the innards and run the bare stub. Coat it with some CRC corrosion inhibitor to prevent rust. Reassemble when you are ready. I recall you telling me the 16 has unique outers. I’d be scouting for 2 worn out outers you could carry for this type of an emergency.
Another option would be to fabricate something to take the place of the joint. It wouldn’t necessarily need to have splines to “clamp” the bearing together. |
I think I have a pair of 14" outer cv's on the shelf.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll use the CRC on them and install them after I drop the front diff and open it for inspection. Feeling so glad I bought that Torque Convertor! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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Steve M. wrote: |
tjet wrote: |
I think you need to sacrifice 2 outer CV's to run without axles. You cut the stub off, but leave enough "flange" from the CV side to keep the remaining stub it. You also need a couple of flats to hold it so you can torque the axle nuts.
I bet Sodo has the fine details on this. I'm interested as well. I have a pair of old CV's I can use. |
Syncro 16 front outer cv's are like currency. Do not bend, fold or mutilate! (I'm not going to look at that old bill tucked away in my wallet!) |
Yeah I put 16/930 CV's on mine. Burley kit. |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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You don't need flats to torque it, just chock the wheel and the whole van.
If your cv is tight it can be a pita to disassemble the cage and balls. Either way, you need to remove the balls one by one to get the cage and star out. _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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And mark every part do you can put the CV together exactly as it was running. Not just the cage snd star - the balls in the same spots, too. Simple to put each ball in a numbered sandwich bag, and use a punch to make a small mark on the cage n star. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2982 Location: MD
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I’d remove the innards and run the bare stub. |
Yeah, me too. I wouldn't leave anything inside it. I'd probably stretch a nitrile glove around the inside and zip tie it tight.
The bare stub will hold it the same as if the axle is installed. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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Pchill2 Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021 Posts: 405 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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I've driven with my axle shaft cut off right near the boot. I broke an inner joint while on the road and did not have the proper tools to remove the entire axle and pull the shaft, cage, and balls out.
I had no issues during the 500 or so miles it was like that. _________________ 87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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Pchill2 wrote: |
I've driven with my axle shaft cut off right near the boot. I broke an inner joint while on the road and did not have the proper tools to remove the entire axle and pull the shaft, cage, and balls out.
I had no issues during the 500 or so miles it was like that. |
Ouch - that drastic cutting the axle, but ya gotta do what the circumstances demand.
The "short" shaft coming out the boot surprised it did not wobble. The boot had to be strong enough to keep it centered.
I put the boot back on without any shaft and was worried the end of the boot would flail around like a loose fire hose because the small end had nothing to guide it's movement. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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Update:
It turns out my worst fear of have to drop the front diff to check it for damage turned out to not having to drop the front diff.
-Last spring I did the partial front end rebuild replacing LCA bushing with poly, new lower ball joint and wheel bearings. UCA ball joint was still good.
-In October I did the big brake mod to vented front discs. This was another new wheel bearing due to pulling the hub to replace the wheel lugs for longer ones from T3 Technique.
-In December There started a noise like a bearing going bad when turning hard to the left, especially 360° circling to the left. Right turns there was no noise.
The noise wasn't quite sounding like a wheel bearing, but a bearing is the only part between two parts that makes noise when rotating.
I did the normal inspection for a bad wheel bearing physically touching every part of the wheel and suspension. There was and still is no play in the wheel bearing. There was no play in the CV's that I could see. The axle shaft has no play in twisting or trying to twist it. The front cv's inner and outer are tight. (The left front outer cv I changed in 2018 with a used, but still good cv I bought from Seth Hatfield and it is still good. This was when the stock of Syncro 16 front outer cv's had dried up and there were none in stock anywhere.)
So it was not the wheel bearing, cv's or any other part of the suspension making noise.
- Next thing that happened was an intermittent "binding" feeling from the driveline when accelerating around 40mph. Again I could not see anything physically wrong.
This was intermittent only happening once every 15-30 accelerations.
Looking to find it was not finding it. So my not so great option was driving it until the part breaks. Definitely going to find it then!
This " binding" feeling where I could feel the Syncro physically catch itself like driving into a blowing tumbleweed has stopped. So now I'm thinking whatever was catching has been worn down. Which isn't right cause it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
Oil samples taken when this was happening have not shown anything but normal particles in the tranaxle or engine. It's a frigging mystery.
- Now last week backing out of a parking spot-a left turn in reverse there was a bang that I could feel in the steering wheel. It came from the passenger side of the front diff or at least from where the front corner of the passenger seat base.
(If you could see dollar signs in my eyeballs this was when you would have seen them.)
So put it up on jacks and start looking again. The only thing that I found was a vertical movement in what I thought was the side gear shaft of the front diff on the passenger side.
This is when I removed the front axles to drop the front diff.
However, before taking that step I posted a video here to get more opinions on it because in my mind I was seeing a bad differential bearing coming apart. I couldn't understand how that would happen, but the sequence of events was/is messing with my mind.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=790274
Fortunately, the first person who replied was the guy I was going to send a text message to asking him to look at my video. It was Sunday and I didn't want to bother him on a Sunday.
Folks - Mark Ward is an Ace Mechanic and all around good guy!
He said it just looked like normal play in a flange and not play in the shaft.
Okay, I pulled the flange off and I had to pry it off.
Before I took it off and was trying to move it and I could see it was the flange moving just vertically. I got it to move horizontally and heard the same noise that I thought was a bearing. I only heard it twice and could not get it to repeat.
Looking at the flange I do not see anything wrong with it. I do not understand how this was the cause of what's happened. For that "bang" I felt there should be some physical evidence showing on it.
So the front diff has a diff lock on it. Could that bang have been the diff lock catching?
I operate the diff locks every month checking the operation and I have added more sealing to them to keep the dirt off the shafts. The lights come on and go off as the should.
I have the part-time diff lock added to the transaxle and it was not engaged when I heard the bang. I cannot not see this flange being the problems I've experienced.
At this point I have replaced the flange with one I took off a spare transaxle.
I'm putting it all back together and changing the Upper Control Arm bushings and new shocks before driving it.
See what happens after drive it again! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
use a punch to make a small mark on the cage n star. |
I would expect the punch-tip to flatten to a mirror-surfaced facet, leaving no visible evidence on the cage or star. You may be able to punch-mark the outer race outside the blued induction-hardening.
Prob have to clean the parts well and use a sharpie, then be careful how you handle them or the ink rubs off.
Reassembling CVs "as original" is a worthy goal but is "not easy".
I have attempted to do this, but each time I quikly lost configuration and had to say fuggit. I don't even try anymore.
Steve M. wrote: |
- Now last week backing out of a parking spot-a left turn in reverse there was a bang that I could feel in the steering wheel. It came from the passenger side of the front diff or at least from where the front corner of the passenger seat base. |
Having a locker, it is suspect. The point where the light turns on/off is not all that conclusive, and depends it it's locking or unlocking.
It could be a cracked CV ball-cage. The cracks can close up and be very difficult to see. You have to inspect the cage real closely. A cracked cage is bad news. You can lose steering control.
There can be a lot of force on the cage as it maintains the balls in the "homokinetic plane".
Especially if there is any wear in the ball-tracks, influencing the balls to stray from the homokinetic plane. And wear in the squared cage slots too. While do believe this is r'zeppa truth..... responsibilities for full disclosure demand that I admit an excuse to use the term homokinetic, and I believe I used the term properly. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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Sodo wrote: |
There can be a lot of force on the cage as it maintains the balls in the "homokinetic plane".
Especially if there is any wear in the ball-tracks, influencing the balls to stray from the homokinetic plane. And wear in the squared cage slots too. While do believe this is r'zeppa truth..... responsibilities for full disclosure demand that I admit an excuse to use the term homokinetic, and I believe I used the term properly. |
Okay, I had to look that up! 😄
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0094114X15000609
Of coures you know what this means... I need more nitrale gloves! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Yesterday 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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I cant think of a downside except the turbulence of the full seals that may further displace the seal through pressure or some pulses of force. Yet even this scenario has no downside until or unless the seal were to come completely displaced and start shedding chunks of rubber that then distributes into the valve body. Not dure thats a an actual risk, just trying to 'chair fly' it.... _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Yesterday 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Syncro w/front axle removed - Outer CV cage & balls? |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
I cant think of a downside except the turbulence of the full seals that may further displace the seal through pressure or some pulses of force. Yet even this scenario has no downside until or unless the seal were to come completely displaced and start shedding chunks of rubber that then distributes into the valve body. Not dure thats a an actual risk, just trying to 'chair fly' it.... |
Doug, ya got the right thread? 😄 _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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