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AhnwS71
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Joined: January 31, 2018
Posts: 215
Location: Huntsville, AL
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 Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
You should never be mixing grease and oil.
You can use just a straight grease....and it will work excellently and not leak. I use synthetic Superlube. stays about the consistancy of warmed vasoline...to about -30F...and is good to over 450F drop point....non toxic, clear, EP rated, FDA approved.
You want to pump the box full....and literally pack it until its voidless as possible inside. This was as the parts rotate there is no place to displace grease to. They stay perfectly lubed. Much better than oil. Ray |
i am about to replace the outer seal to try and stop a leak. it is stated above not to mix oil and grease. i assume it already has some oil in it. Should i flush it clean some how any then add grease or oil? Or just top it off with oil since that is what is probably in there?
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'71 Westy
Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you. the Stranger |
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metahacker
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Joined: May 26, 2010
Posts: 692
Location: san.diego
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| Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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i am also a fan of super lube .. in the past i have mixed the Super Lube 41150 Synthetic Grease (NLGI 2) with Synthetic Gear Oil, ISO 150 ... i know it might sound weird but there are others who blend the grease and gear oil .. (they are made of the same stuff so they are totally compatible) .. this is my current favorite (i have also mixed the synthetic whale oil ester gear oil stuff from lubegard in there but that is just excessive) ... you could also just use the higher viscosity gear oil ...
the steering feels very nice after switching to this
Millers Oils 5529JJ Classic Worm Steering Box Oil is also very nice and made specifically for this purpose ... i have used this as well ..
a lot of people also like Eckler's Champion"00" Manual Steering Box Grease
a more familiar solution that may be easier to get, and may weird people out less, is John Deere Corn Head grease.. also made specifically for applications like this ....
all available on amazon i believe. and all good choices |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| metahacker wrote: |
i am also a fan of super lube .. in the past i have mixed the Super Lube 41150 Synthetic Grease (NLGI 2) with Synthetic Gear Oil, ISO 150 ... i know it might sound weird but there are others who blend the grease and gear oil .. (they are made of the same stuff so they are totally compatible) .. this is my current favorite (i have also mixed the synthetic whale oil ester gear oil stuff from lubegard in there but that is just excessive) ... you could also just use the higher viscosity gear oil ...
the steering feels very nice after switching to this
Millers Oils 5529JJ Classic Worm Steering Box Oil is also very nice and made specifically for this purpose ... i have used this as well ..
a lot of people also like Eckler's Champion"00" Manual Steering Box Grease
a more familiar solution that may be easier to get, and may weird people out less, is John Deere Corn Head grease.. also made specifically for applications like this ....
all available on amazon i believe. and all good choices |
Oh no!....Thats not weird......remmeber that this is an old thread. Over the years I went from straight superlube NLGI 2.....to exactly what you noted. A 50/50 mix of superlube NLGI 2 grease and superlube ISO 460 if I remember right....which is a 85/140 gear oil.
Since they are botb synthetic and very similar compatible base....I blended them well, vacuumed to remove air.....and you get something like molasses good down to -60F.
Another really great option...probably the best....is look through this thread
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=660446
You should look at John,Deere corn head grease or Pen-right steering box grease. Both are NLGI 00. They have an at,rest cold weather consistency similar to NLGI 2....but softer. But....both are "super - thixotropic" ....meaning the millisecond that any force is applied to the grease....between bearings, gear teeth or sliding parts moving through the grease....they instantly shear thin to a flow rate similar to gear oil. When things quit moving tjrough t he grease or squeezing it.....it rapidly comes back to normal thickness.
It is custom made for small gear,boxes and PTO-s. Ray |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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FWIW, I noticed the steering gear on my '77 to be leaking while I was out on the road away from home. Not having time or tools available to do a more proper repair. I drilled a tiny hole near the top of the box and used a grease needle to pump some moly grease into the box. Since I ended up leaving the van with my kids while they were in college I just added a bit more grease when I gave the rig an annual service. After a couple of years the leakage dropped to nothing. That has been 15 years ago at this point in time. Haven't had any problems with the gear box and doubt that I will. The kids went to college in upstate NY so the steering gear got to see some fairly serious cold and later got to spend a couple of winters in the high deserts of eastern Oregon where it saw quite a few days of use with morning temps below 0°F.
If I have learned one thing about lubrication over the years its that things will die very quickly if the lubricant in a gear box becomes too low and it is much more important to top the lubricant up ASAP rather than debate what lubricant is most proper to use and delay getting the level up. Dumping two quarts of 75w90 gear oil or ATF into an engine to get to a town is way better than trying to limp it in with the oil light flickering because the oil level is too low for the oil pump to continuously pick it up. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
FWIW, I noticed the steering gear on my '77 to be leaking while I was out on the road away from home. Not having time or tools available to do a more proper repair. I drilled a tiny hole near the top of the box and used a grease needle to pump some moly grease into the box. Since I ended up leaving the van with my kids while they were in college I just added a bit more grease when I gave the rig an annual service. After a couple of years the leakage dropped to nothing. That has been 15 years ago at this point in time. Haven't had any problems with the gear box and doubt that I will. The kids went to college in upstate NY so the steering gear got to see some fairly serious cold and later got to spend a couple of winters in the high deserts of eastern Oregon where it saw quite a few days of use with morning temps below 0°F.
If I have learned one thing about lubrication over the years its that things will die very quickly if the lubricant in a gear box becomes too low and it is much more important to top the lubricant up ASAP rather than debate what lubricant is most proper to use and delay getting the level up. Dumping two quarts of 75w90 gear oil or ATF into an engine to get to a town is way better than trying to limp it in with the oil light flickering because the oil level is too low for the oil pump to continuously pick it up. |
Yes!
Years back....in my quest to stop the leaking from and then later rebuilding of my type 4 steering gear boxes.....I did a lot of reading on other vintage car sites. These ranged from early 20th century ....model A and model T....to the tractor and farm implement sites. Lots of interesting mfg documents were posted. Apparently early in the 20th...gear oil of some type of was common in steering boxes. As you note.....as long as it has some EP elements....it probably really does not matter what oil. Some even used thickened castor oil.
Seals ranged from leather to natural rubber early on. Some were actually pipe style packings like those used on water valves.
From all of that....you get the gist that keeping oil in these things was a never ending chore. It probably didnt matter all that much which oil.....but if you ever ran dry..... the box was done.
Then modern seals. Still.....lots of leaks with oils. And the steering boxes got harder to reach on modern equipment. And....interesting a lot of tractors and old cars had recirculating ball steering boxes like my 412. More expensive....smoother and longer lasting. But if you ran low or dry they died quicker than a worm gear box.
So....a lot of tractor and old car manufacturers....40s, 50s, 60s.....went to thickened gear oils like one would use on a PTO (power take off unit). It helped to keep oil in the box longer.
This is one of the prime reasons why John Deere developed their corn head grease. Ray |
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AhnwS71
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Joined: January 31, 2018
Posts: 215
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Another really great option...probably the best....is look through this thread
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=660446
You should look at John,Deere corn head grease or Pen-right steering box grease. Both are NLGI 00. They have an at,rest cold weather consistency similar to NLGI 2....but softer. But....both are "super - thixotropic" ....meaning the millisecond that any force is applied to the grease....between bearings, gear teeth or sliding parts moving through the grease....they instantly shear thin to a flow rate similar to gear oil. When things quit moving tjrough t he grease or squeezing it.....it rapidly comes back to normal thickness.
It is custom made for small gear,boxes and PTO-s. Ray |
The bus has been idle for a couple of decades. I replaced the drag link, next coupler and noticed a leak from the steering box. I am going to replace the seal and I am not sure what is exactly is in the box now or who or when they put it there. If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus?
thank you all for the great info.
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'71 Westy
Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you. the Stranger |
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Angus II
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2016
Posts: 708
Location: Mammoth Lakes Ca. 93546
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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Hello,
My question is: Where do you find the correct steering box seals for sale.
I need the output shaft seal for a 71 bus. But could replace both, while I'm at it. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 am Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| Angus II wrote: |
Hello,
My question is: Where do you find the correct steering box seals for sale.
I need the output shaft seal for a 71 bus. But could replace both, while I'm at it. |
I would just measure the shaft, the seal recess and the old seal thickness and go to a bearing dealer. This can match one up. Ray |
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Hoody
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Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:57 am Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| Sgkent did an excellent write up on rebuilding these steering boxes. Pretty sure he included all of the parts to do so, part numbers, and where to source them. |
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BerneseMtnDog
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Joined: July 07, 2014
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Location: Oregon
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AhnwS71
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Joined: January 31, 2018
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Location: Huntsville, AL
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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all you need is the standard size number in mm, and look for a double lip seal with those numbers at any bearing house.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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AhnwS71
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2018
Posts: 215
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| AhnwS71 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
You should look at John,Deere corn head grease
It is custom made for small gear,boxes and PTO-s. Ray |
The bus has been idle for a couple of decades. I replaced the drag link, next coupler and noticed a leak from the steering box. I am going to replace the seal and I am not sure what is exactly is in the box now or who or when they put it there. If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus?
thank you all for the great info. |
sorry for re-post i just wasn't clear on what to do.
If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus?
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'71 Westy
Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you. the Stranger |
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AhnwS71
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2018
Posts: 215
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| AhnwS71 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
You should look at John,Deere corn head grease
It is custom made for small gear,boxes and PTO-s. Ray |
The bus has been idle for a couple of decades. I replaced the drag link, next coupler and noticed a leak from the steering box. I am going to replace the seal and I am not sure what is exactly is in the box now or who or when they put it there. If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus?
thank you all for the great info. |
sorry for re-post i just wasn't clear on what to do.
If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus?
_________________
'71 Westy
Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you. the Stranger |
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AhnwS71
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2018
Posts: 215
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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| AhnwS71 wrote: |
| AhnwS71 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
You should look at John,Deere corn head grease
It is custom made for small gear,boxes and PTO-s. Ray |
The bus has been idle for a couple of decades. I replaced the drag link, next coupler and noticed a leak from the steering box. I am going to replace the seal and I am not sure what is exactly is in the box now or who or when they put it there. If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus?
thank you all for the great info. |
sorry for re-post i just wasn't clear on what to do.
If i choose the John Deer route, should i some way flush the box before packing with grease? can this be done without removing the box from the bus? |
I received an answer from Ray on PM and wanted to share:
Yes...it can...if you are also going to replace the seals. But the question is...does it have a drain plug on the bottom? If not...then no...you will need to remove it...but not disassembled it.
Typically the bus and type 1 gear boxes were filled with 90 weight oil. Type 4 boxes....like 411 and 412....I know were filled with "gear grease". This is because the type 4 boxes were recirculating ball type boxes. They leak just as much and just as often as a type 1, 2, 3 box...but cannot tolerate even short periods of running too low or dry.
Several books were very specific about the terminology...gear oil versus gear grease. On virtually the same page they note gear oil for the manual trans and automatic differential...and "gear grease" for the steering box.
If you dig far enough the difference between the two is ....that what is considered a gear "grease"...is usually just a thickened gear OIL. Typically its something like an ISO 460 (about a 140 weight oil) or an ISO 680...which is still a 140 weight SAE oil but with a higher viscosity at temperature. Its thicker just to not leak past worn seals as easily.
Virtually any grease or oil....in a steering box....with EP properties to work with skew bevel gears...is plenty good. The TRICK...is getting something that is thick enough to stay in the box....but not so thick in cold weather that it causes either a lubrication issue because it gets pushed out of bearings or between gears like wheel bearing grease...or is so stiff it becomes and steering return issue.
So....lubricant wise...you can use ANY EP oil or grease. But.....Corn head is a special shear based grease that starts somewhere between an oil and a grease and instantly thins.
So...you need something that is strong enough to dissolve gear oil....and evaporates fast. Acetone will not do it. Xylene based paint thinner, MEK, a good carb cleaner like Berrymans B-12...will all work fine......but will eat the seals. So as long as you are changing out the seals....its not a problem.
If there is no drain plug...I would remove the box...clean the outside with carb cleaner....then pull the input and output shaft seals....use a can of Berrymans B-12 spray carb cleaner. Spray off the outside area around the seals making sure no grit gets inside.
Then spray between where the shafts and the seal were to push oil out of the bearings and into the interior. Then spray most of the can into the box through the filler hole to fill it about halfway up. Then work the shaft back and forth by turning the input shaft.... to dissolve as much oil as possible. You may need to do this twice.
Drain it....and let it sit with a lamp shining on it closely until the box gets about 100F...and let it sit for a few hours to evaporate the solvents. Then replace the seals pump in the cornhead grease.
Really....to replace the seals.... you typically need to pull the box and pull off the pitman arm.
If you dont want to do that....and it has a bottom drain plug....just do what I listed with the box still in place if you can reach the fill plug. Ray
I did what he suggested. I could not get the lamp to heat up the box so i placed it over a floor vent from our heater and it brought the box up to 100 degrees exactly. I also flushed the box 3 times to make sure there were no remnants of the previous oil. The fluid that poured out of the 2nd cleaning was still very dark. Also, i used a zip lock bag for the grease as i did not want to empty my grease gun just for one use. I cut the corner of the bag and squirted the grease in like icing on a cake. It worked just fine. I had to pop some air bubbles and wait a while to squirt more in.
see video about corn head:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zNhli-J0Gk
new seals from Wolf West
clean box
Corn head for under $5 at tractor parts house
grease in ziplock
full box ready for install.
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'71 Westy
Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you. the Stranger |
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panel
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Joined: December 02, 2001
Posts: 1091
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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I used CV Joint grease in my split window steering box. No probs .......been working great since 1995!
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 3:10 am Post subject: Re: steering box oil? |
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If you want something thinner than a #2 grease, why not buy a #1 or even thinner grease?
What is in a bottle of STP anyway/anymore? My understanding was that the original formula was nothing more than the long chain oil thickening agents that were added to oil in the 1960's to create multigrade oils, so what do you get if you added a bottle of STP to 30wt? 30w-60? 50w-60? Who knows????
As for their claims that adding STP increases the level of zinc in your oil, when I did some checking on this several years back, STP (red bottle) only contained 800 ppm zinc so if you were running an oil with 1000 ppm zinc (which is typical for any oil thicker than 10w30) it would actually reduce the concentration of ZDDP in your oil. Maybe STP has a useful purpose, but I have never learned what said purpose is. |
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