Rear River of Dino Juice

[beatrich]

So a few days ago, I notice a sheen of oil on the back hatch after a few hundred miles of driving. I kept oil in it, and have gotten here to Joshua Tree and have time and space to take a look at it. There is a stady stream of oil dripping down from the direct middle of the engine, and I will have to take some parts off to see more. It is dripping like crazy, leaking about a quart every thirty miles or so. My guess from searching the threads is that it is the main seal back in there. I have not found the Bently on my trip so far, so am kind of guessing at how to do things. Anyone have any advice on fixing this leak? I imagine I will be taking off the exhaust, the shroud, and the pulley. Methods and torque values would be hugely appreciated, as well as what parts it takes. Also, anyone know of a good place to pick up a manual in the Southwest? Thanks, Eric

[beatrich]

Or does anyone know of a competent repair shop?

[msinabottle]

Hello! Sorry you're having a time of it. When you're on the road, your best resource for a good garage as close as you can find one is:

http://www.roadhaus.com/shops.php

He's got a list of recommended--and UN-recommended--repair shops. Bookmark that sucker!

Now, the direct middle of the engine is where the oil drain plug is... You're sure that's tight, and has a new copper ring to complete the seal? Might be stripped if it wasn't treated gently, and that would be a very likely source of a bad leak. You can 'search' here about the repairs for a stripped oil drain plug--a common problem. I wish I could be more authoritative about the seals, etc, and what else it might be.

You've found a good resource, just keep looking! And good luck.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[beatrich]

I will try to be a bit more specific...The oil leak is from the back of the engine, where the crank seal is....the oil leaks down the back middle, if you were looking at the license plate, right there, but down, and unvisible. there is a whole bunch of engine tin there, and the exhaust is kind of in the way too. so not the bottom, but the vertical back part, and it drips right down the center there. Thanks for the link and the help.

Eric

[PDXWesty]

Are you talking about the side of the engine where the water pump and belts are? I always refer to that as the front of the engine but I could be wrong.

[mtac]

beatrich,
you are not giving the folks here alot of info to go on
what the hell are you driving? aircooled? 1.9 wbx? 2.1? diesel? conversion?
try to be specific as to the engine and trans you have
there are alot of experienced people here that can probably point you in the right direction

a couple of thoughts, regarding 2.1 wbxers, if that is what you are driving
a "crank seal" is usually thought of as the rear main seal. this is behind the flywheel. not to say there couldnt be a seal in the location you are describing
also, an oil pressure sender is down where you are describing. could have become loose (maybe) and or blown out (not likely). its just threaded in the case. yeah, there is alot of tine and exhaust to get to it
_________________
1987 Syncro Westy
"Bad roads bring GOOD people... Good roads bring all kinds of people!"

[beatrich]

sorry, 2.1 WBX with standard tranny, shes an 86. Thanks for the help!

Eric

[mtac]

ok,
that helps
take a look at this ad from the samba, (thanks 10cent)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/pix/1780205.jpg
it shows the basic 2.1 wbx block
the small black circlular deal on the drivers side is the oil pressure switch/sender, you can probably reach in there with a long screw driver and feel if it is loose
the silver square in the middle bottom is the oil pump / cover, definately a possibility. you can try to fit a box end wrench in there and see if the nuts need to be snugged up, 10 mm i think
the big silver circle above the oil pump will have a pulley on it, seals behind, i dont think you can do anything here with the engine in the vehicle
there is also a seal/o ring on the distributor shaft, if bad or broken will leak oil. easy fix
there are many good mechanics on here that can probably be more helpful
if its drivable, take it to the car wash and clean it off real well, that should help locate to oil as well
good luck
_________________
1987 Syncro Westy
"Bad roads bring GOOD people... Good roads bring all kinds of people!"

[tencentlife]

Does it continue to drip continually for hours after the engine is stopped, or does it only spew oil when it's running and stop dripping once the excess runs off? Or does it spew when running, but continue to drip slowly when stopped no matter how long you wait. Answering that will get you a lot closer to knowing which are the possible sources of the leak.

Things on the rear part of the motor that only leak when the engine runs:

There is a crank pulley seal, but it's quite rare for them to leak more than a seep, a profuse leak would be rare indeed. The pulley can be removed and the seal replaced with the engine in, but you'd better be pretty well tooled up to do it.

Most common cause of a profuse leak is the oil/water heat exchanger oil seal o-ring, which can crack and blow out. This leakage will be apparent left of the centerline, and most of the oil will drip off the bottom of the filter.

Oil pressure warning switches usually just seep, but they can blow out unexpectedly. There is one just below the right side of the water pump pulley, you can see where it screws in on the picture linked above (wanna buy an engine while you're at it?).

The dipstick tube can spew a bit of oil when the engine runs if it isn't seated in place, but you have to be overfilled for this to occur and it will pretty much stop when the excess has been blown out.

Things that will drip continuously whether running or not:

Oil drain plug.
Oil filler pipe flange.
Pushrod tube inner seals if the oil level is to the top mark.
Crankcase seam.
Oil suction galley crankcase plug.
Oil pressure relief valve plug.

One thing that will drip when shut down, but spew when running, is the oil pump itself. The cover would have to be pretty oose, and I would expect you might get an oil pressure warning buzzer if the leakage was severe.

The distributor o-ring seal isn't under pressure, and oil drains away from it internally, so there may be seepage around the diz base, but there won't be profuse leakage from there. Same goes for the breather tower and fuel pump flange blockoff cover.

So, get a rag, flashlight, and a hand-mirror if needed, crawl under there and get lookin'.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[beatrich]

mtac, tencent, thanks for the info. I have looked a little more, and cleaned it up, and while I still don't know exactly what it is, I know a little more about the spew. It only drips when I drive, and stops shortly after I park it. Most of the oil ends up on the cross-brace under the engine.

I found a guy here in Joshua Tree who works on VWs and has the parts I will be needing. I am headed over there in a few to get some gaskets and hardware for the exhaust, because I know for sure those bolts are snapping on their way out. I am hoping he has a manual too.

tencent, I will be driving up through Northern NM in a week or so. I used to live in SF and Taos. (In a 72 Westy) I hear your town is amazing. Any places you know of that I must stop? I am more familiar with the Taos environs, and will be camping up there for a week or so. Thanks a ton for the help.

Also, if I can't find a gasket for the oil pump to crankcase (that is the only one this VW guy doesn't have) can I temporarily seal it with gasket maker? or should I cut one out of gasket stock? I have a lot of time in early Dec. to go through the engine and massage it back into shape after a 7,000 mile trip. The WBX has been good to me so far, considering the distances we've covered.

[morymob]

oil pump gaskets (2ea-1thin&1thicker/same as type 1 bug aircool)

[tencentlife]

You don't need any gaskets for the oil pump, they're both unnecessary. I'll use the one between the pump body and the crankcase, but just using sealant would be fine there and I wouldn't consider it temporary if you do a clean job. But I never use them between the cover and the pump body anymore. Just check the gear end clearance in the body with a straightedge, it should be .004". Then just use a thin bead of sealant outside of the circular recess on the outer face of the body, and you'll have a tighter pump and better oil pressure when hot. Dirko, Rheinzosil, or even Permatex silicone could be used in either location, just don't overdo it under the cover. You don't want any chance of sealant flashing getting into the pump as it may lodge in the oil passage before it reaches the filter.

PM me when you're in the hood.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[beatrich]

well, further inspection and some dismantling showed the oil pump housing/cover gaskets to be the culprit. I got the gaskets and am looking to do the job starting tomorrow morn. unfortunately, shade trees are not readily available, so I will be looking for a parking lot somewhere where I can do my thing. two questions:

will I need to totally drop the exhaust? because that means for sure buying new hardware, because those rusty bolts are all gonna snap.

any hints or warnings or advice on dropping the engine brace in the back? I am sure I will figure it out, but just wanted to know if there is anything to do specially.

I am trying to get the VW shop to loan me their bentley manual, on deposit, but they aren't really too keen on that. thanks for all the help so far, i will try to document my work a little for others.

[mtac]

beatrich,
i replaced an oil pump a few years back, it was not a whole lot of fun
as i recall i removed the rear splash guard/tin, the exhaust, the rear carrier bar - (just block up the engine, or you could support it from up top with a 4x4 and straps). it also seems to me that i had a coolant hose in the way as well.
good luck with it
_________________
1987 Syncro Westy
"Bad roads bring GOOD people... Good roads bring all kinds of people!"

[riceye]

I was able to replace the pump without removing the exhaust. Here's an old post with the procedure:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=238340&highlight=
This describes removal of the coolant pipe, which lies atop the pump cover.
Unless you have the proper tool to remove the pump, don't try - just remove the cover, clean up, and reseal to the pump. I recommend no gasket, just a film of RTV.

Good luck!
_________________
'87 Westy Weekender - daily driver on salt-free roads

There's gonna be some changes made.

“I find that things usually go well right up until the moment they don't.” - Ahwahnee

"Quality isn't method. It's the goal toward which the method is aimed." - Socrates, later quoted by R.M. Pirsig

[mwsnow]

I helped you this afternoon in the Home Depot parking lot. Check your inbox for contact info if you need more help.

Mike

[beatrich]

A vanagon angel helped me today replace the gasket. No more leak!

Bad news though...Both low pressure warnings come on. (buzzer & light) and the car is running louder.

I had some exhaust work done early this morn, and reefing on the exhaust pipes couldnt help the connections down there. I fear that it could be my valves tapping like mad though.

The oil warning light has never come before, even when it was a quart low. Now it won't turn off.

Any hints on what might have changed? I hoped that I would be flying down the road to NM tonight. Is there a test to show that I've got oil flow, and it isn't going to fry the engine? The louder sounds whether exhaust or mechanical give me the heebie jeebies.

Thanks!

[jolotter]

When one of the exhaust gaskets at a cylinder blew, it was ticking like a worn valve lifter before it pumps up. But the ticking wouldn't go away - until I fixed the exhaust leak. Is the aircooled a hydraulic valvetrain? If so that could be it.
Sounds like maybe the guy who did the muffler work opened something up when he was "reefing on the exhaust pipes." He might've unplugged the oil sender connections while he was there and forget to do them back up?

Get a Bentley so you can figure out what you're looking at. They cost quite a bit for these vans, but are worth every penny.

Johann

[riceye]

[beatrich]

Well, woke up this morning, started her up.

loud ticking, drip from oil cooler housing.

I drove to the VW shop next to the muffler shop. No low pressure light or buzzer! He let me borrow his stethoscope, and it turns out, no valve ticking, just a leak at an exhaust port at the head.

(great tool!)

I drive another mile or so, and no oil drip! Start it back up, and no exhaust noise.

Do vanagons self-heal? Answer: Kinda.

Thanks all, the problem seems to have been fixed. Also, this procedure makes it really easy to change the motor mount bushings, if ya got em.