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fisheye
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005
Posts: 101
Location: Boca Raton, FL
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: Engine thermostat? |
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| Do I need to stall the thermostat and the vents that open and closed on my engine (located in S Florida)? It seems like an uneeded item at first glance but I would like an opinion or 2 from the subject matter experts! |
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crofty
Judas of the North
Joined: August 09, 2000
Posts: 19672
Location: Land of Whine and Phonies
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Since they installed them on all VW's i'd say it couldn't hurt to have one.
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ztnoo
Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2005
Posts: 801
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thermostats Explained
by Richard Atwell
"Long engine life is not hard to achieve as long as all the parts are in place and functioning properly. Because the engine is air-cooled, the control of air flow to manage cylinder and oil temperatures is critical to engine life.
Whether or not you live in a hot climate you must have a working thermostat flap system for maximum engine life. Hoover said it best, "Unfortunately, without the thermostat your jugs will wear like a bitch, as will your valve guides; you'll burn more gas, suck a lot of oil and have a hell of a time passing your smog check".
Gene Berg is even more specific. He says missing thermostats increase engine wear 15-17%.
When the thermostat is missing, the engine takes too long to warm up in most climates. If you live where it's 100F all day long every day of the year you might think you can probably leave it off but where it's hot it can also drop from 85F to desert night temperatures in 24 hours.
If you live in a climate where you can drive all year round in mild temperatures (60-70s) such as the California coast then a thermostat is required. If you live in Canada or parts of the USA where it snows, it's required. If you live in Texas or Florida it's required. No if's and's or but's. Why?"
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Thermostats.html
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17284
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:11 am Post subject: Re: Engine thermostat? |
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| fisheye wrote: |
| Do I need to stall the thermostat and the vents that open and closed on my engine (located in S Florida)? It seems like an uneeded item at first glance but I would like an opinion or 2 from the subject matter experts! |
All through the 60s and 70s, mechanics around the world removed the thermostat assembly for fear of a failure in the closed position. IMO this fear is unfounded. However, during this time, millions of Beetles were driving around for hundreds of thousands of miles without a lot of problems.
Nowadays, people are better informed and realize there is really no need to remove the thermostat assembly. Some people even take a Nazi like stand that you must use the T'stat even if you never leave the Sahara desert.
For you in South Florida, the missing t'stat is not a big deal. If I lived there, I wouldn't bother hunting down the parts. If I had the parts on my engine, I'd leave them there. You will never see any difference one way or the other in your climate.
FYI, VW eliminated the t'stat assembly in the latter years of production in Mexico. Nobody there has ever heard of any negative effects due to this. Your weather is similar, so you will have the same results.
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Chas223
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2004
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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You will only hurt yourself in the long run, not running a T-Stat, the benefits, if any, are minimal, and I have never seen any research from anyone who claims removing the thermostat helps the engine.
Besides have you been to a salvage "yard" lately and tried to find the pieces for a Thermostat? you just about cannot find them anymore as most people now realize that they are worth having.
I run one in every VW I have owned. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17284
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Chas223 wrote: |
| You will only hurt yourself in the long run, not running a T-Stat...... |
The guy lives in south Florida. It won't make any difference if he has a thermostat or not.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Chas223 wrote: |
| You will only hurt yourself in the long run, not running a T-Stat...... |
The guy lives in south Florida. It won't make any difference if he has a thermostat or not. |
of course it won't, that's why vw deleted them when they shipped the cars to florida originally....
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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fisheye
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005
Posts: 101
Location: Boca Raton, FL
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I see the benefit of the thermostat. However, if any part of if malfunctions the motor will cook really fast. My uneducated guess is that there is a greater risk leaving the thermostat installed. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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So... who's removed the thermostat from their non ACVW?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| fisheye wrote: |
| I see the benefit of the thermostat. However, if any part of if malfunctions the motor will cook really fast. My uneducated guess is that there is a greater risk leaving the thermostat installed. |
well hell i see the benefit of a cooling system, but if it fails it could cook the engine...why chance it? pull the fan off and you'll have no worry as to if it will fail... 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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roofcat
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Like most have stated... use it in a cooler climate. The warm up time and bringing the oil up to temp. is important. When the oil is cold and thick it works the oil pump a lot harder, especially if you attempt higher rev's. this in turn (worse case) can cause air gaps in the oiling system due to the pump trying to work thick cold oil which would lead to the excessive wear... or, get a cylinder head temp gauge, or gauges. and when it warms up then drive it. |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| So... who's removed the thermostat from their non ACVW? |
I've actually heard of guys removing them from their watercooled cars. Why they thought it would help is beyond me. 
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1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Same idea... failure will cook an engine or leave you stranded. Then some are too damn cheap to buy a new one... or use coolant. |
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Ron Domeck
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2007
Posts: 1466
Location: louisville Ky
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I tought when the engine was cold the flaps were shut, when the thermastat explodes the flaps stay open all the time, not close. So by removing the system you are only changing the warm up, not the cooling at normal engine temp. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ron Domeck wrote: |
| I tought when the engine was cold the flaps were shut, when the thermastat explodes the flaps stay open all the time, not close. So by removing the system you are only changing the warm up, not the cooling at normal engine temp. |
True, but even open the flaps help direct the air to specific locations on the heads. So if you're not using the thermostat you should install the flaps and wire them open.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Thingggg
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Engine wears excessively when cold so thermostat warms it up quicker. Regardless if the starting temp is 10 degrees or 90 degrees running temps are @ least 2 to 3 times that so the thermostat cant hert.
“you should install the flaps and wire them open.”
Or use after market cooling system with thermostats not incorporated in the design—good point however! |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| alsehendo34 wrote: |
“you should install the flaps and wire them open.”
Or use after market cooling system with thermostats not incorporated in the design—good point however! |
that would defeat the purpose...read what Glen wrote:
| Glenn wrote: |
| True, but even open the flaps help direct the air to specific locations on the heads. So if you're not using the thermostat you should install the flaps and wire them open |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Thingggg
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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"that would defeat the purpose...read what Glen wrote:"
Jake T1 DTM is said to direct the air correctly without thermostat, other cooling systems make the same claim. Jake for one shows some pretty convincing #s. Just pointing out alternative. I also bet the late shrouds for Mexico are a bit different. |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| alsehendo34 wrote: |
Jake T1 DTM is said to direct the air correctly without thermostat, other cooling systems make the same claim. Jake for one shows some pretty convincing #s. Just pointing out alternative. I also bet the late shrouds for Mexico are a bit different. |
you should be more specific instead of throwing out qualifiers after the fact....Jakes system is an entirely different animal and lots of folks wouldn't know a DTM if they tripped and fell on it....when you say "aftermarket system" folks will automatically picture an EMPI chrome shroud in their mind...they don't have provisions for a thermostat or flaps either...
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Don't compare Jake's highly developed DTM system to those aftermarket shrouds that are just hollow cans.
It's like comparing a paper plane to a F18.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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