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keifernet Samba Search & Rescue
Joined: May 11, 2002 Posts: 19395 Location: Samba Center for Behavioral Science
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Palominas AZ
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to add...
Type I engines / Early Type IV (early bay - 1968-1971 and european Type I - 1979 - and carbureted Type IV 1972-1974) be sure you
Use Cloth Braided Fuel Line - NOT rubber Fuel Line.
Make sure to remove any fuel filters from the engine compartment.
Type IV engines (late bay - 1975-1979) make sure you use cloth braided REINFORCED lines - NOT Cloth Rubber Fuel Lines - they sell them for the Porche Fuel Injection systems. _________________ Ryan
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1963 Beetle
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Bursch Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2006 Posts: 448 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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[email protected] wrote: |
I'd like to add...
Type I engines / Early Type IV (early bay - 1968-1971 and european Type I - 1979 - and carbureted Type IV 1972-1974) be sure you
Use Cloth Braided Fuel Line - NOT rubber Fuel Line.
Make sure to remove any fuel filters from the engine compartment.
Type IV engines (late bay - 1975-1979) make sure you use cloth braided REINFORCED lines - NOT Cloth Rubber Fuel Lines - they sell them for the Porche Fuel Injection systems. |
What's up with the cloth? I've got reinforced rubber FI lines _________________ 1978 T2b ASI Riviera Plan I // Camper Special with MegaSquirt & EDIS // 091 with 5.14 R/P and Peloquins LSD
Powered by Just Kampers, German Supply, Busted Bus & Aircooled Technology
2008: Amsterdam - Beijing - Olympics -- 17.500km
2010: Amsterdam - Cape Town - FIFA World Cup -- 26.000km
2014: New York - Rio de Janeiro - FIFA World Cup -- 28.000km
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Camper Special Club Member |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Palominas AZ
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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The cloth ones insulate from heat. The rubber - while reinforced is not designed to operate in the temps that CAN happen in the Air Cooled engine compartment. Think on it - the heads themselves - if you are going up a HUGE incline - may reach close to 400 degrees. Melt City! The cloth helps stop that from happening. _________________ Ryan
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1963 Beetle
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sav1028 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2007 Posts: 54 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thankx for the info, Ryan! I didn't realize the benefits of the cloth lines, I'll have to replace the rubber ones I have. _________________ ~SAV~
1983 Vanagon Westfalia Full Camper
Rene Descarte walks into a bar.
The bartender looks over at him and says "Would you like a beer sir".
Descarte thinks for a second and replies "I think not".
And he diappeared forever. |
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brownONE Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2007 Posts: 63 Location: El Paso
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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[email protected] wrote: |
....and helpful hints on where to get the right lines - etc. |
....and install tips
HOLY CRAP, THIS NEW STICKY HAS MADE ME SOOO DAMN NERVOUS |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is great that we are going to have a "FIRE" sticky. But for once can't we keep things factual? VW used non externally braided fuel line over the whole run of T4 FI engines. After reading one of the above post I went out and looked at every T4 fuel injection system I have laying around, some on cars and others on core engines or in boxes. I was able to find the fuel loops of 6 different T4 systems ranging from an early 70's 411-412 D-jet to an '83 Vanagon. Each and every one had smooth non externally braided fuel line and since all the clamps appeared original I think it very likely that most if not all the hoses were original. I also found three WBX systems, again all the hoses were non externally braided.
Furthermore I am not sure I have ever seen externally braided FI hose, none that I have bought from my Portland VW supplier has ever been externally braided and certainly none that I have bought from NAPA or other chains. As for underhood temperatures, the Bay window bus has the lowest normal temperatures of any vehicle that I am aware of, the entire engine compartment is on the inlet side of the cooling air stream. All engines are capable of putting out a lot of heat just as much and likely more than a T1 or T4, a couple of years ago when my then teenage daughter blew a water hose on my WBX and then drove the 11-13 miles home it melted the thermostat housing and all the wiring near the head, but the fuel line did not let go or even appear damaged.
On a carbureted engine I will agree that externally braided line has a history of giving better service than smooth line, not because the external braid is inherently better, but because the normal stuff sold by FLAPS once tended to be of dangerously poor quality. The quality of regular smooth fuel line FLAPS sell does seem to have improved markly over the years though.
Last edited by Wildthings on Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eliotkb Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2007 Posts: 95 Location: usa
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
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i've been meaning to get an extinguisher lately but i keep forgetting... not good. any one have a pic of where exactly the fuel filter should be located to be safe? |
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Mark Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2003 Posts: 1523 Location: Victoria, BC Canada
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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The FI fuel line is re-inforced internally, and you can see it in the cross section. The advantage to using this is the condition of the hose is easily verified, where the cloth braided hose hides the condition of the actual hose inside, (ie. cloth braided hose "looks fine" but could be dry & cracked underneath).
The FI line costs a bit more, but so does having your bus go up in flames. _________________ www.zwerks.ca
Last edited by Mark on Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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brownONE Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2007 Posts: 63 Location: El Paso
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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crap! i thought we were gonna get useful preventative information on here.
yet, people can't even agree on what's the right kinda hose to get... |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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When VW people speak of braided fuel lines I take that to mean an external cloth braid. Most if not all rubber FI rated line has internal fiber reinforcement, and has very high quality rubber. The line you want to use on a FI engine will say for use with fuel injection, it will cost you somewhere between $5 and $10 a foot. If it doesn't say for use with FI do not use it. Don't depend on the vendor to hand you what you want, read what it says on the hose.
Regular smooth fuel line will also have an internal ply and may be rated as high as 200 psi which is well above the pressure of a T4 fuel injection system. This hose may have sufficient strength to handle that kind of pressure when new, but the quality is typically lacking and it will age rapidly. Again if it doesn't say for use with FI do not use it on your FI engine.
For carbureted engines the externally braided, cloth covered fuel line has a history as being of good quality, many rightfully choose to use it. If you are going to use smooth fuel line at least don't buy it from Home Depot or a hardware store. I don't go to my local auto parts to buy lumber or toilet brushes so why would I go to a HD to buy fuel line. |
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grandfatherjim Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2007 Posts: 172 Location: near Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I've had lots of old cars, I would guess > 40, and now (finally) my first Bay. I am used to replacing old cracked rubber fuel hoses and like having known good ones in place.
But I have to say I have never seen this kind of fanaticism about replacing the hoses with respect to any other vehicle.
After having read a lot of the threads on here it still isn't clear to me what causes the fuel hoses on these vehicles to deteriorate faster than on others?
I am happy to stand corrected but really, isn't replacing them every year more than is necessary? If I jump in and drive say, a ten year old vehicle, I am not biting my nails about the fuel hoses going. Maybe I should be?
But back to my point, once they are replaced (cause for sure by 30 or 40 years they had better be attended to!), isn't it reasonable to expect them to last a few years?
Jim |
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Quadratrückseite Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2007 Posts: 239 Location: Castle Rock, CO
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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grandfatherjim wrote: |
I've had lots of old cars, I would guess > 40, and now (finally) my first Bay. I am used to replacing old cracked rubber fuel hoses and like having known good ones in place.
But I have to say I have never seen this kind of fanaticism about replacing the hoses with respect to any other vehicle.
After having read a lot of the threads on here it still isn't clear to me what causes the fuel hoses on these vehicles to deteriorate faster than on others?
I am happy to stand corrected but really, isn't replacing them every year more than is necessary? If I jump in and drive say, a ten year old vehicle, I am not biting my nails about the fuel hoses going. Maybe I should be?
But back to my point, once they are replaced (cause for sure by 30 or 40 years they had better be attended to!), isn't it reasonable to expect them to last a few years?
Jim |
I think there are quite a few factors which make them more prone to burning. High heat, missing/incorrect clamps, cheap or wrong size fuel hose, hidden vent lines which are forgotten, and location of the gas tank compared to the engine are a few which come to mind. Also, these fuel lines are located right next to the distributor, a major fire hazzard if you have a cracked hose here (from Sean Bartnik's site):
Here's a couple of nice writeups on them:
http://baywindowmafia.googlepages.com/kombifireprevention
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FuelHoses.html
I think inspection of your hoses is key. Replace all of them when a bus is new to you, and then inspect annually, or semi-annually. _________________ 1978 Country Homes Camper conversion
www.gusthevwbus.com
www.eatingpeaches.com |
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Traveling Writer Samba Scribe
Joined: May 07, 2006 Posts: 1112 Location: Florence, Italy
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Maybe that these cars are more prone to burning is also partly simply because of the sheer amount of tinkering (both unskilled and not) that has gotten done on them over their 30+ years on the road. I don't think Datsun Sunnys or Ford Broncos of similar vintages get half the mucking around that our busses have gotten over the years by all their (often teenage or at least very young) POs. Just a thought! _________________ Cheers,
Davi
1977 2.0 FI Westy
2011 1200cc Yamaha Super Tenere
1976 Feet (they work surprisingly well) |
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vwjoe84 Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2007 Posts: 240 Location: Dayton, OH
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen in some cases where an extinguisher probably wouldnt have helped, how many people have managed to actually save their bus with an extinguisher? I have one just in case, but now im worried cause of tesD stated that when his bus caught fire that even if he had an extinguisher he probably wouldnt have been able to save it. Perhaps everyone's fire is different depending on where it catches fire at. Has anyone ever rigged up a fuel cut off valve such as an airplane would have? that way in the event of fire the valve can be closed electronically or manually via rip cord or something under the dash. Then you go in the back with the oven mit and extinguish it. I also like the idea of having the supressants in the engine compartment and being able to release them via button on the dash. |
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agreendaya Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2006 Posts: 1307 Location: Winthrop, MA USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I was wondering the same thing. I'm gonna do lotsa maintenance as soon as I get off school for winter break, figured some fire prevention would be good. Is there something (preferably inexpensive) like vwjoe84 is talking about that could stop the flow of gas from the tank? I rather like the manual rip cord type idea, as I often don't trust electrical things... |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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vwjoe84 wrote: |
Has anyone ever rigged up a fuel cut off valve such as an airplane would have? that way in the event of fire the valve can be closed electronically or manually via rip cord or something under the dash. |
This is the simplest system that I know of that will stop the fuel flow on a fuel injected bus once the pump is shut off. Low tech and totally automatic. Get two of their Series 100 cartridge valves sized to the ID of the fuel line and set at 24" water. Install one in the line between the tank and the fuel pump and the other in the return near the tank. For a carbureted rig you would only need one.
http://www.smartproducts.com/check_valves.php |
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brownONE Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2007 Posts: 63 Location: El Paso
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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i didn't want to jack this thread in any way, so instead i'll post a link to mine.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=266708
i needed some advice about my setup, so if anyone can help, i would appreciate it very much.
thanks |
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busfreak_71 Flat 4 Junkie
Joined: April 29, 2007 Posts: 1191 Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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I know ill be installing a solenoid valve in my buses fuel line soon, probably in the spring, Ill just wire it to the ignition so it's only open when the key is on. _________________ '71 Tin Top Westfalia
'99.5 Bora TDI
'85 Jetta Coupe
'85 Mercedes 300SD
Resident Off-Grid hippie and diesel advocate. |
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udidwht Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005 Posts: 3779 Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: . |
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The cloth covering was not intended as a heat shield. It's purpose was to prevent 'chaffing'. I only use it on the hose going thru the firewall. The rest of the hoses are reinforced FI hose 'Goodyear'. I just recently replaced all the hoses after six years of running the same type hose and the Goodyear hose held up better than the braided hose when twisted 180 degrees, no cracks. |
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