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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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 Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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140.9HP @ 5237RPM
158TQ @ 4555 RPM
13.2 @ 109.44MPH on the rollers
NICE!!! Thanks for sharing. I would have thought your torque curve would be a little more flat, is that because it's a relatively small stroke crank? Did you get a readout of your A/F ratio too? Thanks again, you are one of the few people that has done a complete, start to finish, story on your buildup, all the way to dyno results. Very impressive!  |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
140.9HP @ 5237RPM
158TQ @ 4555 RPM
13.2 @ 109.44MPH on the rollers
NICE!!! Thanks for sharing. I would have thought your torque curve would be a little more flat, is that because it's a relatively small stroke crank? Did you get a readout of your A/F ratio too? Thanks again, you are one of the few people that has done a complete, start to finish, story on your buildup, all the way to dyno results. Very impressive! |
Thanks!
The stock stroke (tiny 69mm), the size of my turbo (a wee bit too "big").....they both play into the torque curve.
I was HOPING my .45 AR turbine housing would have arrived in time but it didn't. 
That would widened the curve noticably on the bottom with faster spool up.
I know, I know...I SHOULD have done an A/F on it, too. I have an A/F gauge on the car and it does alright.
But I only had $65 in my "play fund" to pay for the three dyno runs.
Messing with the jetting would have been many more pulls and a lot more money.
The dyno is about 6 miles from my house so my plan is to make it back over there after the replacement turbine housing arrives and I can muster up the cash to tune.
My primary goal of the day was to nail down my HP and TQ peaks so I can perfect my shift points.
I don't want to buzz the motor any higher than necessary due to stock rotating assembly.
Turns out, I wasn't going high enough with my before-yesterday 5200 chip!
We'll have to wait and see what happens since I imagine the stock parts aren't going to last long now that I'm pushing 20 PSI and 5200-5500 RPM's.
Then again.....this thing never ceases to amaze me. |
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Bill271
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 761
Location: escondido
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| I know what ya mean my buddy built a stock 16 and put it in a baja, he was blowing through a solex 30 pict at 20#s that little sucker grenaded 3 trans before he put a bus in it if i remember right the guy he sold it to is still driving it on the same eng |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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I swapped on the .45 AR turbine housing yesterday (.49 is what I had).
This is MUCH better suited for my little motor.
That's only a .04 change but it's a striking comparison in size and shape of the scroll!
The .49 was used in manual trans turbo Eclipse's.
Whereas the .45 was in the automatic-VERY rare.
I picked the .45 up from my favorite turbo shop: www.gpopshop.com
WOW! Boost comes on with a vengeance now!
I found it a LOT easier to truck along the backroads in fourth and roll into the throttle for boost, rather than a downshift to 3rd as before.
NOTE: I'll have to wait for a warmer day to really give a good evaluation.
It was 45 degrees when I drove it on Sat. and the intake iced up BAD so it wasn't "on top of it's game" by any means. |
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jshiko
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Pottsville PA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I am in the middle of putting a t25g (cold side is .80 hot side is .64) on a 1500sp. How do I plum the the grainger valve? I am also going to run a small holley 350 or 390. are you running a 2 or 4bbl? and what kind of manifold off the carb? Thanks!! |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jshiko wrote: |
| I am in the middle of putting a t25g (cold side is .80 hot side is .64) on a 1500sp. How do I plum the the grainger valve? I am also going to run a small holley 350 or 390. are you running a 2 or 4bbl? and what kind of manifold off the carb? Thanks!! |
That's an interesting T25 AR arrangement. Where'd you find it?
The .64 hot side will make for some serious lag.
My T25 is .43 cold and .45 hot (.49 until yesterday).
I JUST installed the .45 hot side and have no numbers or quality seat time to tell if it hurt or helped the HP/TQ. Throttle response improved immensely, though.
Grainger valve how-to link:
http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm
I am using a Holley 390 4 bbl..
Picked it up used off of Ebay.
Brand new is obscenely expensive-in my opinion.
Mine's an old dual line, dual metering block, vacuum secondary they haven't made in years.
It's easier to tune than the metering plate style they sell now.
You could use a 2 bbl. Holley, AJ Sims has with great success but you will have to boost reference the power valve and jet accordingly.
350 is as big as you want to be on that little motor.
My intake is homemade. Ugly as can be but 100% functional.
See the pictures early in my post.
Good luck! |
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jshiko
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Pottsville PA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for all the info! My t25g is off of a JDM 89-98 Nissan 180sx. Where do you think is going to be my biggest downfall? I mean lets say i'm able to tune my carb close to your specs do you think my set will run decent? It's going in a 68 ghia with a 4.12 R&P. Close to 100HP? |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| jshiko wrote: |
| Thanks for all the info! My t25g is off of a JDM 89-98 Nissan 180sx. Where do you think is going to be my biggest downfall? I mean lets say i'm able to tune my carb close to your specs do you think my set will run decent? It's going in a 68 ghia with a 4.12 R&P. Close to 100HP? |
180SX? I'll be darned.
Is that a US model?
The only downfall I foresee is the possibility of that A/R being too steep for your 1500's exhaust flow capability.
The T25 WILL work with your small motor BUT the A/R is what drives how quickly the turbo will respond to your motor's ability to flow exhaust and spool up.
How big is your exhaust tubing?
If you're gonna stick with that high A/R number (.64, right?), you're gonna need every bit of exhaust velocity you can muster.
What is the OD of your exhaust tubing?
It had better be small (1.25" tops) to get that .64 turbine housing working.
Bigger tubing diameter is NOT better with small motors and turbo's.
Can you find a tighter A/R ratio Turbine housing possibly? Maybe in the .40's?
Trust me, you'll enjoy the motor more. |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| JDM = Japanese Domestic Market |
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Lawrence_0485
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2007
Posts: 465
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Would CB's cheater cam or a W110 be a better choice over the stock one? |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Lawrence_0485 wrote: |
| Would CB's cheater cam or a W110 be a better choice over the stock one? |
For a stock 1600, I'd choose a CB Cheater over the 110 hands down.
The 110 is WAY too much for a turbo small motor.
As I said earlier, my buddy here in town had a 110 in his 1915 turbo motor (AJ Sims system) and it had a soggy bottom end.
He swapped in a 100 and it was MUCH more fun to drive.
A milder cam would have even been better!
What you need to think about is, first and foremost, is:
What is your goal with your turbo motor?
Daily driver? Weekend toy? Racer? Now be honest......
Cam conservatively and you'll have a reliable, torquey long life motor.
Don't immediately grab for an aftermarket cam.
See my HP peak and graph?
The stock cam pulled clean to 5300 rpm!
Check out Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" book.
He states that the best cam for driveability in a turbo motor is the stocker, bar none.
Add cam and all you're doing is bumping the HP and TQ peak higher and higher.
If you're running a small turbo with great response, you might run out of turbo before you really take advantage of that cam's peaks.
At that point, you're just needlessly overspeeding the turbo and heating the air.
BUT if your turbo is too big (sized wrong), you'll need to buzz the snot out of your motor to make it work so a bigger cam will be necessary.
But that defeats the purpose of turbocharging in a driver.
You want crisp throttle/boost response to get that thing into boost and start hurling you down the road and not require a bunch of rpm just to get the turbo spinning.
I'm not putting down aftermarket cams by any means but over-camming (and improper turbo sizing) a turbo motor is SO easy and the results are all bad.
Do your research, make a plan, get parts suited to YOUR driving habits and OH are you gonna have a blast.
There is NOTHING like a turbo on a VW motor.
Once you go turbo, you'll never go back.
Man, I could type for hours. |
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Lawrence_0485
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2007
Posts: 465
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Well my stock cam got knocked of my bench and now has a nice nick on one of the intake lobes. So now i need a new cam. If you did it again would you run the cheater or stock. Would the cheater make enough of a diff. to mess with? |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't mean to hijack but I've always wondered how the Engle K65 would work as a turbo cam. 0.342" lift at the cam, 0.478" w/ 1.4:1 rockers, 280 ad, 236 @0.050". Ground on 112LC of course. |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| Don't mean to hijack but I've always wondered how the Engle K65 would work as a turbo cam. 0.342" lift at the cam, 0.478" w/ 1.4:1 rockers, 280 ad, 236 @0.050". Ground on 112LC of course. |
That's an interesting choice.
Will they grind one for you on a 112?
Engle turbo-specific cams try to crutch the VW's tendency of the exhaust port-to-intake port negative bias with more intake lift and duration.
The TCS-10, for example, has a 110 intake profile and a 100 exhaust. Both on 112.
Has anyone checked into AJ Sims' turbo cams?
They're VERY intriguing and not THAT expensive if you add a run-of-the-mill Engle turbo cam ($80+?) and the best lifters ($80?) together.
He wants $180 plus shipping for cam and lifters.
Food for thought. |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, both Engle and Web will grind any of their cams on 112, 114 or whatever you want. I believe AJs turbo cams are ground on 108 LCs. Not sure of the dynamics going on there but they do work, just read his story about the Berg Cruise and dyno run with his turbo bug. Much like your engine MO, pretty impressive. |
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manxracer1
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2007
Posts: 536
Location: Escondido calif.
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: cam choice |
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Now THAT is what I want-a cam specific to my combination.
Not an out-of-the-book generic that "should work".
manxracer should know.....check out his link/video clip above.
WOW! That is a beast! |
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bkern
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 10
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Very interesting. I have a small k03 from my Audi TT sitting in my garage. I've toyed with the idea of throwing it on my 1915. Maybe when the economy picks up and money is a little easier to come by. |
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manxracer1
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2007
Posts: 536
Location: Escondido calif.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: do it !!! |
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The economy is not going to change for a while. Start gathering parts you will need. Everything is getting cheeper to do as sales of parts are dropping. Sell something you don't use anymore. If you haven't used it in 6 months, Craigslist it!! Build it & go have fun.
_________________
1960 vw Manx
My photo's & video's
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii131/manxracer1/ |
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MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: do it !!! |
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| manxracer1 wrote: |
| The economy is not going to change for a while. Start gathering parts you will need. Everything is getting cheeper to do as sales of parts are dropping. Sell something you don't use anymore. If you haven't used it in 6 months, Craigslist it!! Build it & go have fun. |
bkern, listen to manxracer1......
There is no time like the present to start accumulating the necessary bits it'll take to build your system.
Shop around, spend wisely and you CAN have some serious fun with a turbo on a VW motor.
I'm no engineer or rocket scientist......
If I can do it, ANYONE can.  |
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