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bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine.
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

I don't know. I know that a larger (or even no) venturi in the 28 PCI is mentioned in some of the old books I read. I think no venturi upped the main jet to starting point to around 145, if I remember.

The 30 PIC carb is available (a manual choke version of the 1967 Bug 30 PICT.) The venturi and throttle are larger and it should bolt onto the stock intake manifold and accept the stock air cleaner. The intake may need a little porting because you wouldn't want it hanging out into the flow through the larger throttle.

The 30 PIC would lack the correct vacuum connection for the stock Bug 36 horse SVDA carb. A Bus distributor could be used or perhaps the vacuum system on the 30 PIC could be modified to work correctly.

Another concern could be carb icing. I know a 40 horse with a plugged heat riser has more issues with carb ice than a stock 36 horse with a plugged heat riser. Funny, because the 40 horse has intake air preheat. I had to lock that on to make a 40 behave as well as the 36 horse.

A single carb is kinda a weakness with the Bug engines. It needs an exhaust heat riser and that will always be in the process of plugging. Dual singles have their own issues too.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

The first challenge with most people wanting to just "bolt on a pair of carburetors and go" is first, getting the sizing right. The second is the fabrication skill to pull off building your own manifolds and fabricating a decent linkage. Do a marginal job at that, and the third, tuning, will prove to be impossible.

You'd essentially be in uncharted territory with a home brewed 28pict or pci set up. As it is, 90% of vw engine modifiers have a hard enough time getting a pair of IDF Webers to run right, and there's a ton of those kits sold and tuned, and lots of advice to be had that will get yo close to a decent running engine.

If you can't 'tune', that is, painstakingly go through all of the tiny little details, sync carburetor linkages, read plugs, play with ignition timing, and tune out flat spots, jet correctly, a guy would be in for an uphill, if not unwinable battle.

On the other hand, if a guy wants to learn to tune, I'd advice a guy start 'getting his beak wet' with what I wrote a few posts earlier, the basics, most would be amazed at the night and day difference you can get out of a low hp engine by jetting for optimal, and timing adjustments. Back in 1982, I played with my stale air 40hp, added nothing more than a big bore kit (which increased compression ratio slightly) and valve job, it ran just ok. I spent a couple weekends tuning on it, and the result was a 40hp than ran as good or better than a 1600sp. Nothing to brag about, but it taught me a valuable lesson about the power of tuning.

An 1100cc 36hp has a single 28mm carb, with such a small hole, has a strong vacuum signal, great for a vacuum advance distributor, and requires a relatively small main jet (a 34pict on a 36hp for instance, has a larger hole, less vacuum signal, which needs a larger main jet than the stock 28pict. The stock 28pct also has an accelerator pump who's 'shot' is sized for long intake runners and 4 cylinders.

Throw on one 28mm carb per cylinder bank, and you've go twice as much air available but halved the vacuum signal, so jetting requirement change (larger main jet) so will the accelerator pump shot, which might need a restriction in the pump circuit.

Webers are so good in this area because they were designed to sold to all sorts of smaller car manufacturers, a given Weber model could be 'adjusted' to work with many different engine sizes and combinations. Designed with replaceable (smaller and larger) venturi, emulsion tubes, idle, main, even accelerator pump bypass jets on some models, which allowed the oem to taylor a Weber for a particular engine, then order thousands of them configured to work 'bolt on'. Same with competitor Dellorto.

When the VW aftermarket started using them, it took guys like Vittone, Berg, Tomlinson and Lieb to figure out what tune to include in a bolt on kit, that would sort work out of the box. You told them what engine size you built, what heads and cam, and the better retailers would get you set up before they shipped your kit.

Getting a vacuum advance distributor to work correctly might require a balance tube plumbed from intake manifold to intake manifold. Even with that, it will still be tricky to recurve the distributor so it will run right. Considering one 2cyl bank at a time, Adjusting the main jets for lower air velocity through a 550cc engine

The other issue could be the accelerator pump in the carb meant for a long running 4 cyl, may squirt too much fuel for tow, 550cc engine pairs.

You could just order a pair of WW okrasa replica heads in a kit w/linkage, get Joe Ruiz to tune the carbs for you, and re-do your top end for around $2k, a bargin.
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

TomSimon wrote:
The first challenge with most people wanting to just "bolt on a pair of carburetors and go" is first, getting the sizing right. The second is the fabrication skill to pull off building your own manifolds and fabricating a decent linkage. Do a marginal job at that, and the third, tuning, will prove to be impossible.

[snip]

You could just order a pair of WW okrasa replica heads in a kit w/linkage, get Joe Ruiz to tune the carbs for you, and re-do your top end for around $2k, a bargin.


For my '57 Bug I would consider a ready made dual carb kit for a stock longblock, but as you indicate, when rolling your own there is a lot of details to get right, on 2 sides. Even an old kit that was compete would work for me, generally the manifolds, throttle linkage, baseline jetting and setup where worked out, just gotta find the info. I'm not going to invent my own system.

I may try one of the 30 PIC carbs (manual choke version of the '67 Bug 1500 carb) and tune it for the smaller engine, perhaps an old school "boom tube" to free up the exhaust too. 1 carb without throttle linkage and ballance issues. Others here have run this on 40 horse engines, and 36 horse can run the 28PICT carb (Volkswagen approves the swap.) 2 extra HP would be pretty big and I already run a 40 horse gearbox (7% lower gearing.)

Mr. Okrasa's work is so beautiful that if my beach buggy was based on a '60 or older chassis I would likely buy one of his Okrasa 1300cc builds just for effect. I'm not in a huge hurry anymore and 50hp in a 1200 lb buggy would suit me (It has a stock1600 SP in it.) The buggy is more toy, the Bug more car to drive.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

QRP wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is always the trusty zenith carb.



Does anyone have a better picture of this 1963 empi exhaust i can't seem to find any anywhere ....or any info about it thanks......
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

Upper pipe bends remind me of the Roger Bursch (Pasadena, Ca) headers for Porsche 356, but those may have had the pipes nearly level instead of the gentle down angles on this 36hp. Plus, 356 heads had differently shaped mounting flanges for the heads, though Mr. Vittone could easily have cut those off and welded on VW ones. Maybe Mr. V had Mr. B make up a one-off header for this 36hp.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

Rome wrote:
Upper pipe bends remind me of the Roger Bursch (Pasadena, Ca) headers for Porsche 356, but those may have had the pipes nearly level instead of the gentle down angles on this 36hp. Plus, 356 heads had differently shaped mounting flanges for the heads, though Mr. Vittone could easily have cut those off and welded on VW ones. Maybe Mr. V had Mr. B make up a one-off header for this 36hp.


Yeah it maybe custom all the early headers from empi had a 4 bolt flanged and removable muffler the ones on that engine also seems to have the muffler welded as a one piece... i couldn't find any info of it ...i like those headers but also was wishing that maybe there was more info or pictures or maybe someone may have the same headers some where 🤞🤞
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Basicly what Tom said.
However, in your case the only suitable way to go is the dual carb way. Yes, the judson is an option, but there is generally too much trouble with them if they cover some miles. And yes the Speedwell is a very good unit, but also rather expensive.
With the dual carb set up. If you want to take most of the guesswork out of it I would recommend you to contact Joe Ruiz or whatshisname, - Bruch something. Both guys have a good deal of experience with the older types of carbs.
The addition of 1,25 rockers will be both good and bad. Good because it will raise the rpm band so it will make more rpm hp. Bad because the lower to midrange torque will suffer. A set of these 1,15 ratio from AA https://aapistons.com/collections/rocker-arms/products/vw-36hp-hi-lift-rockers-1-15-8-pcs would be a good choice (when they get back in stock) because then the bleed off would be minimal and they will still give you 200 - 250 rpm more window on top along with a little more midrange.
Dual 28 PCI´s and the 1,15 rocker arms can give you approx 10 hp extra.
……………………...alstrup your so right about Judson super chargers .I ran them back in the 1960s. when they where brand new . I had to run high test gas . they burner oil . they did not make that much more power .the vanes all way wore out no matter how much oil lube you ran .it was a pain in the ass to keep oil in the bottle . that's why they don't make them any more .oh I know guys will say they work great . but now a days guys don't drive them very much . like I did in the 1960s . I put a single weber carb on my bug and it ran way better than a Judson super charger. I cant be live the crazy money there asking for the Judson now a days I know I am going to catch hell for saying that about the Judson super chargers but its the truth and some guys just don't want to hear the truth just my two cents if your goint to soend $2,000.00 + buy the best new dual carb set up and a 019 or 010 dizy off of glenn he the best on dizys
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
Alstrup wrote:
Basicly what Tom said.
However, in your case the only suitable way to go is the dual carb way. Yes, the judson is an option, but there is generally too much trouble with them if they cover some miles. And yes the Speedwell is a very good unit, but also rather expensive.
With the dual carb set up. If you want to take most of the guesswork out of it I would recommend you to contact Joe Ruiz or whatshisname, - Bruch something. Both guys have a good deal of experience with the older types of carbs.
The addition of 1,25 rockers will be both good and bad. Good because it will raise the rpm band so it will make more rpm hp. Bad because the lower to midrange torque will suffer. A set of these 1,15 ratio from AA https://aapistons.com/collections/rocker-arms/products/vw-36hp-hi-lift-rockers-1-15-8-pcs would be a good choice (when they get back in stock) because then the bleed off would be minimal and they will still give you 200 - 250 rpm more window on top along with a little more midrange.
Dual 28 PCI´s and the 1,15 rocker arms can give you approx 10 hp extra.
……………………...alstrup your so right about Judson super chargers .I ran them back in the 1960s. when they where brand new . I had to run high test gas . they burner oil . they did not make that much more power .the vanes all way wore out no matter how much oil lube you ran .it was a pain in the ass to keep oil in the bottle . that's why they don't make them any more .oh I know guys will say they work great . but now a days guys don't drive them very much . like I did in the 1960s . I put a single weber carb on my bug and it ran way better than a Judson super charger. I cant be live the crazy money there asking for the Judson now a days I know I am going to catch hell for saying that about the Judson super chargers lol lol


No your right 👍 I remember a guy did one on dyno on his vw bug and it made less horsepower 😣than a stock 36hp like what ??? And not that it cost way more $$ to rebuild those judsons them selfs you can build a 36 performance engine with just the $$ to rebuild the Judson ...judson is just a cool factor just to say look what I got they look cool but there nothing I would get ...i know friends who run 48ida carbs on 1600cc engines and I tell them run 40idf the engine would run better . but like I tell them why Ida carbs and all i get is they look cooler and there bling 😣 " like to show off that they paid 1,000 bucks or more for there 48idas" samething is the Judson. .i love the look of the judson don't get me wrong but there no good for bigger power if your looking for it that's the downside but than again I believe if that's what people like let them be but I aint spending my $$ that's gonna make my engine not perform right...to all reach it's own ....i remember over hearing a guy say he was gonna repop the Judson but with an aluminum body but I think that's a bad idea because the aluminum body will wear out much faster that the oem cast iron or steel Judson body it's a money pit 😣 to me because it won't perform good after a while .....
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
spencerfvee wrote:
Alstrup wrote:
Basicly what Tom said.
However, in your case the only suitable way to go is the dual carb way. Yes, the judson is an option, but there is generally too much trouble with them if they cover some miles. And yes the Speedwell is a very good unit, but also rather expensive.
With the dual carb set up. If you want to take most of the guesswork out of it I would recommend you to contact Joe Ruiz or whatshisname, - Bruch something. Both guys have a good deal of experience with the older types of carbs.
The addition of 1,25 rockers will be both good and bad. Good because it will raise the rpm band so it will make more rpm hp. Bad because the lower to midrange torque will suffer. A set of these 1,15 ratio from AA https://aapistons.com/collections/rocker-arms/products/vw-36hp-hi-lift-rockers-1-15-8-pcs would be a good choice (when they get back in stock) because then the bleed off would be minimal and they will still give you 200 - 250 rpm more window on top along with a little more midrange.
Dual 28 PCI´s and the 1,15 rocker arms can give you approx 10 hp extra.
……………………...alstrup your so right about Judson super chargers .I ran them back in the 1960s. when they where brand new . I had to run high test gas . they burner oil . they did not make that much more power .the vanes all way wore out no matter how much oil lube you ran .it was a pain in the ass to keep oil in the bottle . that's why they don't make them any more .oh I know guys will say they work great . but now a days guys don't drive them very much . like I did in the 1960s . I put a single weber carb on my bug and it ran way better than a Judson super charger. I cant be live the crazy money there asking for the Judson now a days I know I am going to catch hell for saying that about the Judson super chargers lol lol


No your right 👍 I remember a guy did one on dyno on his vw bug and it made less horsepower 😣than a stock 36hp like what ??? And not that it cost way more $$ to rebuild those judsons them selfs you can build a 36 performance engine with just the $$ to rebuild the Judson ...judson is just a cool factor just to say look what I got they look cool but there nothing I would get ...i know friends who run 48ida carbs on 1600cc engines and I tell them run 40idf the engine would run better . but like I tell them why Ida carbs and all i get is they look cooler and there bling 😣 " like to show off that they paid 1,000 bucks or more for there 48idas" samething is the Judson. .i love the look of the judson don't get me wrong but there no good for bigger power if your looking for it that's the downside but than again I believe if that's what people like let them be but I aint spending my $$ that's gonna make my engine not perform right...to all reach it's own ....i remember over hearing a guy say he was gonna repop the Judson but with an aluminum body but I think that's a bad idea because the aluminum body will wear out much faster that the oem cast iron or steel Judson body it's a money pit 😣 to me because it won't perform good after a while .....
………………………………………..your right I for got about the looks that people want. look I have a Judson .and your right. I did fall for the looks back in the 1960s for the judson super charger .I must say this. people that are running a Judson now a days want the set up that they ran back in the 1950s . and that's ok its history. I was talking to the people that want more power for there daily drivers not people that drive on week ends to shows . spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: bolt on upgrades for stock oval 36hp 1200 engine. Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
spencerfvee wrote:
Alstrup wrote:
Basicly what Tom said.
However, in your case the only suitable way to go is the dual carb way. Yes, the judson is an option, but there is generally too much trouble with them if they cover some miles. And yes the Speedwell is a very good unit, but also rather expensive.
With the dual carb set up. If you want to take most of the guesswork out of it I would recommend you to contact Joe Ruiz or whatshisname, - Bruch something. Both guys have a good deal of experience with the older types of carbs.
The addition of 1,25 rockers will be both good and bad. Good because it will raise the rpm band so it will make more rpm hp. Bad because the lower to midrange torque will suffer. A set of these 1,15 ratio from AA https://aapistons.com/collections/rocker-arms/products/vw-36hp-hi-lift-rockers-1-15-8-pcs would be a good choice (when they get back in stock) because then the bleed off would be minimal and they will still give you 200 - 250 rpm more window on top along with a little more midrange.
Dual 28 PCI´s and the 1,15 rocker arms can give you approx 10 hp extra.
……………………...alstrup your so right about Judson super chargers .I ran them back in the 1960s. when they where brand new . I had to run high test gas . they burner oil . they did not make that much more power .the vanes all way wore out no matter how much oil lube you ran .it was a pain in the ass to keep oil in the bottle . that's why they don't make them any more .oh I know guys will say they work great . but now a days guys don't drive them very much . like I did in the 1960s . I put a single weber carb on my bug and it ran way better than a Judson super charger. I cant be live the crazy money there asking for the Judson now a days I know I am going to catch hell for saying that about the Judson super chargers lol lol


No your right 👍 I remember a guy did one on dyno on his vw bug and it made less horsepower 😣than a stock 36hp like what ??? And not that it cost way more $$ to rebuild those judsons them selfs you can build a 36 performance engine with just the $$ to rebuild the Judson ...judson is just a cool factor just to say look what I got they look cool but there nothing I would get ...i know friends who run 48ida carbs on 1600cc engines and I tell them run 40idf the engine would run better . but like I tell them why Ida carbs and all i get is they look cooler and there bling 😣 " like to show off that they paid 1,000 bucks or more for there 48idas" samething is the Judson. .i love the look of the judson don't get me wrong but there no good for bigger power if your looking for it that's the downside but than again I believe if that's what people like let them be but I aint spending my $$ that's gonna make my engine not perform right...to all reach it's own ....i remember over hearing a guy say he was gonna repop the Judson but with an aluminum body but I think that's a bad idea because the aluminum body will wear out much faster that the oem cast iron or steel Judson body it's a money pit 😣 to me because it won't perform good after a while .....
………………………………………..your right I for got about the looks that people want. look I have a Judson .and your right. I did fall for the looks back in the 1960s for the judson super charger .I must say this. people that are running a Judson now a days want the set up that they ran back in the 1950s . and that's ok its history. I was talking to the people that want more power for there daily drivers not people that drive on week ends to shows . spencerfvee


I see it as is ....the 1600 performance guys will question us in why in the heck do those guys wanna fix 36hp when there 4times expensive to rebuild or to make a performance engine out of them and how there under powered and that a 1600up engine will out run a 36 or40hp ??? But than they don't understand that we are keeping them alive or trying to ..so in a way I see why a guy would want a Judson it's nothing I would get or fix but it's understanding in ways ....
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