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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: I have found drawings for wiring harnesses for HEBMULLER |
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I have found all drawings for wiring harnesses for HEBMULLER and Police Car
And now I can work with them
Tom
Kdf-service
[email protected] |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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I also have a patterns for Hebmueller harnesses, made from an original Heb harnesses. I started making these this past summer.
They are quite similiar to the convertible Beetle harnesses with a few exceptions. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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kdfkid Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2004 Posts: 395 Location: Hessisch Oldendorf Germany
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Heb |
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Hi Thomas,
i think your Heb harnesses will be the best because making them from the orginal draweing is much better then just from a pattern from a car.
My Heb was in stock since 1965 and i thought the harness was all orginal. Now when i checked it after takeing out of the car it seemed like they did even on this some modefication.
The harness is not like our harness from our 1950 split cabriolet.
Thomas when will you have them and what will a harness cost ?
Bye Christian |
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splitpartsunlimited Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2006 Posts: 1251 Location: Good Ol`Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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no need to cover the specs with black rectangles , not everybody has the capability to manufacture such cloth harnesses and the only capable to do it , and to do it in a perfect way , is already making them ....
if i ever have a heb , and i really doubt it , i will buy the harnesses from John ....
happy new year
Ricardo _________________ in my Garage:
1951 crotch cooler split
1971 1302 cabriolet
1981 Mercedes Benz 230 military "Gelandewagen"
2010 Mercedes Benz c200 kompressor touring
Last edited by splitpartsunlimited on Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Heb |
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kdfkid wrote: |
Hi Thomas,
i think your Heb harnesses will be the best because making them from the orginal draweing is much better then just from a pattern from a car.
My Heb was in stock since 1965 and i thought the harness was all orginal. Now when i checked it after takeing out of the car it seemed like they did even on this some modefication.
The harness is not like our harness from our 1950 split cabriolet.
Thomas when will you have them and what will a harness cost ?
Bye Christian |
If I make any wiring harnesses I always use orginal drawings, NEVER only sampel from the car. I have all orginal sampel for kubelwagen, schwimmwagen or even for Kdf-beetle. And when I compare them to drawing I can see always some modefication.
I will have ready some of them in next 2 month, I have loot of order for rest of my harnesses.
You ask me about price I will be 580 euro.
( in this price you will get all parts what you need: like every sampel harnesses, "+" and "-" correct, and every all small parts. )
Every thing will be 100 % like it should to be.
Tom |
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Brezelwerks Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2003 Posts: 1421 Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Libreriajenny wrote: |
no need to cover the specs with black rectangles , not everybody has the capability to manufacture such cloth harnesses and the only capable to do it , and to do it in a perfect way , is already making them ....
if i ever have a heb , and i really doubt it , i will buy the harnesses from John ....
happy new year
Ricardo |
My congratulations to kdf-service for being able to obtain such a rare document, the historical significance of this drawing alone is considerably noteworthy in the hobby.
You can pattern many things from an original of almost anything to reproduce it, but there will always be differences and variances from the original drawing specs. Therefore working from the original drawing gives you unique claim to ensuring 100% authenticity from the start assuming the workmanship quality is there. For Hebmuller owners this is an important development when given a choice.
Gary |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Gary,
Although it is true working from the original drawings is always great, please note that the drawing in question is just the first release of the drawing. No ECN (Engineering Change Notices) shown. It is just the first iteration drawing. It will be close. Like all drawings, they are a guide. What actually was produced can be (and often times *IS*) different. We all well know of production variances and how things in one car are not the same in the next. So although the drawing is really neat and great and all, the true proof is when a harness is made that fits right in all cars (which also have other engineering or production changes in them, too.)
It is a nasty little circle these various changes can make as production progresses. |
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peter schepens Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2003 Posts: 1013 Location: belgium Caesars camp
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: hebmuller wire diagram blue prints |
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Nice find, indeed it is a true relic .
It means also that this is a proof that not all documents from the Heb Factory are destroyed or lost...There is still hope to find other paperwork.
Be also aware that the document has a date in Feb 1949.
It shows also the Type 18 police car? I do not know if the police car have an interior light?
That date is at least 1 month and a half before the first Pre production model was shown in Geneva auto show in April 1949 and a few months before the actual production begin in june 1949.
It is indeed possible that between the relaese of this drawing and the actual first production model they realise some modifications.
The best thing to do is to make a wire loom with the drawings and put this into a non-restored original car ???? to see if it fits correctly.
So My question: Who owns a non -restored - all original hebmuller and want to try fit the new wire loom? Pleas do not respond all together...
I true hope that there are more drawings like that on the hebmuller subject to be found.
Greetings . Peter. _________________ Zelensis, glassfibre body made in Belgium , disigned and built on a VW platform About 25 body's built.
Hebmuller info wanted for http://www.hebmueller-registry.com/home.html |
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Brezelwerks Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2003 Posts: 1421 Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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r39o wrote: |
Gary,
Although it is true working from the original drawings is always great, please note that the drawing in question is just the first release of the drawing. No ECN (Engineering Change Notices) shown. It is just the first iteration drawing. It will be close. Like all drawings, they are a guide. What actually was produced can be (and often times *IS*) different. We all well know of production variances and how things in one car are not the same in the next. So although the drawing is really neat and great and all, the true proof is when a harness is made that fits right in all cars (which also have other engineering or production changes in them, too.)
It is a nasty little circle these various changes can make as production progresses. |
Thats a good point Walt, the dreaded ECR/ECO process will indeed make all kinds of drawing revisions for things like corrections, manufacturability issues, and then eventually cost reduction efforts. I agree though as a first release in February 49, the production harness was likely at least a very close match to the first release drawing, if not the exactly the same throughout production as the first release drawing.
In this case, given that wiring harnesses aren't rocket science, nor this one complicated, and that design guidelines and tolerances are generally far more generous on harness assemblies, I would not be that surprised if there were either few or actually no subsequent revisions made to the actual first release drawing. I'd speculate further based on history, the era, the german work ethic, with limited material and process resources within a festidious coachbuilder (instead of being a volume producer), there was likely a huge emphasis on doing things right the first time to prevent such nasty, disruptive, costly and time consuming ECNs.
I'd actually not be surprised in the least if that harness wasn't first and literally designed on a napkin or any available scrap paper a few times long before it was sent to inking on a costly piece of large paper/vellum, way before it was sent out to an outside supplier. Things are very different today since most of the design process is electronic, including the ECN process, while still a pain in the you know what, its magnitudes easier to manage today than yesterday.
I just tend to look at things in a few more dimensions, with an emphasis on considering the prevailing conditions and circumstances of the period since its been a primary factor on so many other related topics previously discussed. While we may never know what the true history of that harness might be, I have no doubt kdf-service will certainly build a harness "per print" and test it out thoroughly first, and then it would be very interesting to find out what his results were, hopefully he'll post back sometime with that!
Gary |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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r39o wrote: |
Gary,
Although it is true working from the original drawings is always great, please note that the drawing in question is just the first release of the drawing. No ECN (Engineering Change Notices) shown. It is just the first iteration drawing. It will be close. Like all drawings, they are a guide. What actually was produced can be (and often times *IS*) different. We all well know of production variances and how things in one car are not the same in the next. So although the drawing is really neat and great and all, the true proof is when a harness is made that fits right in all cars (which also have other engineering or production changes in them, too.)
It is a nasty little circle these various changes can make as production progresses. |
Also keep in mind that each harness was not made from the drawing. It was made from a tooling fixture (probably a "nail bed" or wire tray) which was designed from the drawing. Tolerances were probably built in to allow for slight differences in wire run path.
Harness specifications are really about each wire's exposed length out side the harness, the exit points in the harness and in some cases, some sub-looming. I drawing would certainly be a nice guide, but any restorer is going to favor fit over validation with 50+ year old drawings.
Original, unmolested/modified wiring is very easy to spot on original harnesses. Factory end termination, leading techniques and wire end deformation from terminals have a consistent signiture and are not easily replicated by previous owners (I can't imagine someone clipping a wire and then waiting 30 mins for a 3lb solder pot to heat up while he goes and finds his bottle of liquid rosin flux). Thus, in my opinion, making a reproduction harness from data gathered from several original harnesses is best.
Nonetheless, Tom's diagram is certantainly noteworthy and will be of use to him in construction his harnesses. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: drawings |
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Hi.
I recive tooday from mr. Christian Grundman orginal never modyficated harnesses to hebmuler. His heb was at stock simce 1965.
I get all sampel harnesses and I checked them with drawings.
They are that same.
I will use them to make my harnesses and Im sure that everything will be ok.
I make harnesses to all WW2 VW and never have any problem.
Look of people are happy with them.
If factory make any modyfication on drawing they write this on old one.
I dont found anything like this on my set.
And please think they make hebmuller only from 1949-1952 so what can they do I sure that naothing. I have drawings from Kdf beetle, schwimmwagen, kubelwagen, and if they change something like daschboard they write this, if they write something like lights also write.
ps. Sorry for my english : )))
Last edited by kdf-service on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: order |
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ps. If I will looking for for any harnesses to my car I will look who have orginal sampel and drawings. and they buy. I dont trust only with sampels.
tom |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Re: drawings |
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kdf-service wrote: |
Hi.
I recive tooday from mr. Christian Grundman orginal never modyficated harnesses to hebmuler. His heb was at stock simce 1965.
I get all sampel harnesses and I checked them with drawings.
They are that same.
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That is good to know!
kdf-service wrote: |
ps. Sorry for my english : ))) |
Your english is better than my Polish. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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JeffL Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2004 Posts: 1370
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Brezelwerks wrote: |
Libreriajenny wrote: |
no need to cover the specs with black rectangles , not everybody has the capability to manufacture such cloth harnesses and the only capable to do it , and to do it in a perfect way , is already making them ....
if i ever have a heb , and i really doubt it , i will buy the harnesses from John ....
happy new year
Ricardo |
My congratulations to kdf-service for being able to obtain such a rare document, the historical significance of this drawing alone is considerably noteworthy in the hobby.
You can pattern many things from an original of almost anything to reproduce it, but there will always be differences and variances from the original drawing specs. Therefore working from the original drawing gives you unique claim to ensuring 100% authenticity from the start assuming the workmanship quality is there. For Hebmuller owners this is an important development when given a choice.
Therefore no one can blame kdf-service for blacking out this document's details, the information contained therein is really his professional trade secret, unless it resides in the public domain which I doubt it does. Also further consider here that some effort/investment might have went into obtaining this document, no one should be surprised that kdf-service may not want to necessarily tempt nor expedite the other 2-3 quality harness makers out there in being able to match what he can uniquely provide to this high end attention-to-detail deep pocketed market.
Gary |
Well said, thanks |
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passoa55 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 571 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: Hebmuller wiring harness |
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That is looking good Tom.
Any pictures of the Hebmuller wiring? _________________ 1950 Hebmuller #458
1955 lowlight lizard green
1955 original paint oval
1956 1600 super V-sunroof Porsche
1958 lowlight ghia black
1963 firetruckred 23 window
1967 SO42 westy
1969 original paint Westy
1970 one owner 1300L bug |
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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Hebmuller wiring harness |
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passoa55 wrote: |
That is looking good Tom.
Any pictures of the Hebmuller wiring? |
When I will have ready I will put here some foto.
Tom |
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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hebmuller wiring harness |
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kdf-service wrote: |
passoa55 wrote: |
That is looking good Tom.
Any pictures of the Hebmuller wiring? |
When I will have ready I will put here some foto.
Tom |
Tomorow I will put some foto of this one orginal with I have from Christian.
Tomasz |
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KdF1 Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 244 Location: East Coast of U.S.A.
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have personally seen some of Tom's work up close. I liked what I saw.
He's a stickler for detail, and if he dosnt know something, he will say so.
Stand up guy. _________________ Feb 1944 KdF Type 82e.
Nov 1947 CCG type 11
www.KdFregistry.com |
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kdf-service Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: POZNAN POLAND
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: heb harnesses |
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Hello my frends.
I decide to end this topic and I will return when I will have ready harnesses to heb.
Tomasz.
Kdf-service
www.kdf.cp6.win.pl |
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passoa55 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 571 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Hi I've seen yesterday Christian at the VW show in Holland and he told me that your wiring is exellent! _________________ 1950 Hebmuller #458
1955 lowlight lizard green
1955 original paint oval
1956 1600 super V-sunroof Porsche
1958 lowlight ghia black
1963 firetruckred 23 window
1967 SO42 westy
1969 original paint Westy
1970 one owner 1300L bug |
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