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Upper control arm bushing failure (pictures)
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dbo550
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get most of my parts from alleuropeanautoparts.com, they have feq brand that look similar to the febi. Here should be a pic of them. They aren't that expensive.
http://catalog.worldpac.com/ibusiness/JSP.v.1.01/i...177FEQ.JPG
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JeffRobenolt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So after further review it looks like the Mayle isn't sealed.

I'm trying some from Cip1.com to see what they are like.

I never new it would be this hard to find some.
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JeffRobenolt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the only sealed ones I can find are Meyle and a china company called Offshore?

Any guesses on which are better? The prices are similar $17.

I don't want to be cheap and have to replace them in a year.

Jeff
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JeffRobenolt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know where to buy the sealed bushings at? I've tried 6 different websites that show them(FEQ) in stock but when I call they don't have any.

What are the other good brands.

This is the only part I need to get the van on the road so I'm getting desprate. I don't want to put the non sealed ones in if there is that much of a difference.

Thanks Jeff
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JeffRobenolt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ordered some Vaico Upper Control Arm Bushings, made in Germany and they are the cheap ones with the white plastic sleeve.
Looks like I'll have to get some different ones.

Jeff
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MichaelBuck
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Chris, I'll add that to the todo list! I'm still thinking I need to pick up thicker eccentric washers. I'll get it apart in the next while and get some measurements. OTOH, it could the shaft(s). Would a bad CV or shaft show by spinning the tire and observing he shaft movement? There's no noise from them - would just have to be a stuck joint or warped shaft. ???????

Michael
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, every Syncro owner who I have sold studs to (or refered them to another source) has tacked them on and I have not heard of any issues.

The studs are already centered in the holes in hub. Cinching them down tight with a lug nut or equivalent nut will make sure that they are perfectly perpedicular to the hub face and keep them that way while tacking. If the nut was not installed to keep the stud in proper position (90º to the hub), it is possible that the studs could be tacked in crooked.
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MichaelBuck
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you heard of any issues from other syncro owners you have sold those studs to? If I follow your advise and cinch them down with a lig nut and tack them will they, in fact, be centered?

Michael
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MichaelBuck wrote:
Chris, I mentioned the tire guys concern about how the studs in the front hub are loose. What do you say about that? Should I have tacked them to the hub or is it fine that the shoulder on the studs don't quite hold the stud tight? Are the wheels still going to center appropriately?

Michael


I do suppose that loose studs could cause a slight shimmy in the wheel. It would depend on how loose they are. If they are loose enough that the wheel could get tightened down with it off center, yes.
I would really suggest cinching the lugs down with a lug nut to ensure they are square to the hub and then tack weld them in two places each. This will ensure that the stud is in the proper position when the wheel is torqued down.

I am working with a manufacturer right now to have a run of Syncro appropriate front wheel studs manufactured since there is no other option right now.
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MichaelBuck
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris and iceracer,
Seems as though disassembly and inspection is in order. I, as well, mixed up the washers and the arms so I had NO idea where things started out at. the really weird thing about this is that the wobble started immediately following tire rotation. I drove to the shop (no wobble) had the rotation done and drove away with a wobble. I went back had them recheck balance twice, put the fifth tire back on, 'unrotated' the tires, bushings, alignment, rebalance (twice), ....... But all started with a simple tire rotation. Will report back when I can get to it, probably in a week or so when I send the 4BT injection pump in for upgrades.

Chris, I mentioned the tire guys concern about how the studs in the front hub are loose. What do you say about that? Should I have tacked them to the hub or is it fine that the shoulder on the studs don't quite hold the stud tight? Are the wheels still going to center appropriately?

Michael
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncro eccentric washers come in 4mm, 5mm and 5.5mm. I suppose it is possible that with washers that are too thin, the nut could "bottom out" on the camber adjustment bolt before tightening the assembly all the way giving you a false torque reading. Speaking of washers, you do have the spacer/washer installed between the nut and the eccentric washer, yes? Without the spacer/washer, the same scenerio could happen, the nut bottoms out on the bolt, leaving you with a tight nut but a loose assembly.
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iceracer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I assume the tightness is due to thickness of washers. I saw that in Bentley as well and then I looked at mine and noticed 2 were thicker than the other two.
Problem for me is I mixed them up and didn't know what washer can from where. So when I installed everything I noticed my right and left sides had that play until I torqued down the nut the best I could and then the right side felt good and movement up and down was free to the touch, ie normal in my opinion but when the left side was tightened down it was very snug, ie, I had to use a bit of force to move the Arm up and down.
So I took it all apart and put the thinner washers on the left side but the result was the same. The van is only a roller right now due to the restoration in process but the suspension moves freely up and down as best as I can tell. May end up ripping it all apart again at some point if it bothers me. Hope that helps.
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MichaelBuck
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks iceracer, Certainly one of the thoughts I've been entertaining is the need for thicker eccentric washers but was unsure about the tube issue. So are you saying the 'tightness' of the control arm - washer - tube (along the bolt axis) is what eliminates the movement? Bentley gives the specs for different washers so maybe it'll be that easy???? It's light enough to see now so I'm going to go take a look again.

Michael
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iceracer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The inside of the tube is not a circle , it is oval shaped, therefore , I can understand how this can happen. But the eccentric washers on each end fit into a slight indentation and when tighted down should prevent any movement. I noticed on mine that the eccentric washers seemed to be a bit different in thickness. Could it be you need a thicker one to take up the slack?
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MichaelBuck
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the play of the arm by checking the 3/9 movement of the mounted wheel/tire. As the tire is moved the upright moves fore and aft and the control arm rocks perpendicular to the camber bolt. The play is also by grabbing the arm itself and giving it firm rocking motion - working it, again, perpendicular to the the camber bolt.

Is it possible the ID of the tube is worn or wallowed out?

Michael
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MichaelBuck wrote:
When I check 3/9 there is slight movement of the upper control arm, I'd say to look at a point the outer edge where the ball joint mounts there is ~1/8" of movement of that point. Not that much but it is definitely noticeable and more than on the driver's side.



Can you describe how you are checking for this play? Is it with the wheel on the hub, simply grabbing the upper control arm or?
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MichaelBuck
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,
I was hoping to here from you on this issue. Thankfully, no, my 'tube' is not broken loose as the video showed. When I check 3/9 there is slight movement of the upper control arm, I'd say to look at a point the outer edge where the ball joint mounts there is ~1/8" of movement of that point. Not that much but it is definitely noticeable and more than on the driver's side.

So the question remains could that amount of movement cause a wobble of enough degree to affect the steering wheel?

I've had concerns from the tire guys about the spacers and loose studs (studs from Chris I did not tack weld in), as well as, my alignment guy's concern about the size of the tires (235/75/15). Still have no anwers or even a notion what the problem is. I'm about to pull the shafts to see if there is something going on there.

Any other ideas?????

Michael
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MichaelBuck wrote:
Gonna bring this back to the top - I replaced my bushings to deal with a wobble. But alas the wobble did not go away!


Hopefully this is not your problem, but....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=313595&highlight=weld
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iceracer
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know when I installed mine a few months ago, they had play when tight but once I torqued them down, that was it. Maybe you need to try to tighten them a bit further. I haven't driven mine as it is a resto project and will take another year.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone????
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