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blacktruck Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2005 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: starter bushings,why not steel? |
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Just curious why the starter bushings are made of such a soft metal.
I just got through machining a steel adapter bushing to fit on my partial bellhousing(engine test rig).
Easy to make,seems like it'll work fine for the use but is there a reason
they weren't steel in the first place? |
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Eric_S Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2007 Posts: 862 Location: Sparks (think Reno) NV
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: |
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You always want dis-similar metals on friction surfaces to avoid galling. Brass and other copper alloys are soft, yes, but have a relatively low friction coefficient (for a metal). If you use a steel bushing to support the end of your starter, I promise it won't last long and will screw up your starter shaft too. _________________ --
Eric_S
What are all these extra parts? |
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lostinbaja Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2004 Posts: 4036 Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Tye OE starter bushings probably also have a lubricant inpregnated into them to help them last longer as well. _________________ Jerry...
If it's being towed, it must be a trailer!
"Vee Grow Too Soon Oldt Und Too Late Schmardt"
RIP Morgan
My photos
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album92 |
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nightphorge Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2006 Posts: 174 Location: Bel Air
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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cast iron on steel = really good. Steel on steel will work fine as long as there is a good layer of grease, but without the grease, they'll bond to each other. |
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volksaddict Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2003 Posts: 1724
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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the 12v trans to 6v starter conversion bushings are made of steel, They're so thin nothing else would work. |
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gfw1985 Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2003 Posts: 948 Location: Raphine, VA
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Just put an autostick starter on and never worry about it again. Plus its higher torque. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33882 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Eric_S wrote: |
You always want dis-similar metals on friction surfaces to avoid galling. Brass and other copper alloys are soft, yes, but have a relatively low friction coefficient (for a metal). If you use a steel bushing to support the end of your starter, I promise it won't last long and will screw up your starter shaft too. |
X2
Say, how close to the flooded town is Sparks?
Last edited by KTPhil on Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Most of those bearings are made from powdered bronze with additives such as graphite, teflon, Moly and others depending on the properties that they want. It is just filled into a mold and pressed at high pressure and out comes the finished bearing. Way in the past they added graphite directly to the molten metal and then sintered (burned) the bronze
Most oil pump gears are made in a similar way except with powdered steel. Very precice manufacturing process. |
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nsracing Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003 Posts: 9437 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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A budding machinist? I suggest you read some metallurgy materials.
Steels do not make good bearing materials. Steel will weld itself to steel if they rub together. This is how friction-welding is done.
Bronzes and cast irons are good bearing materials. Steels are not.
Brass is relatively soft, but there are bronzes out there harder than steel.
IT is a bearing material if it will self-lubricate. Take for example cast iron Chevy heads. The are no valve guides at all. The "guides" are cast one-piece with the head. That is also why cast iron makes very good cylinder materials, or valve guides.
There are also other materials used for bearings... babbit, delrin and other exotic new stuff.
Peace. |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Steels do not make good bearing materials. |
Humm. Maybe we should call Timkin, SKF, FAG, GKN, Hyatt Clark, Borg Warner and ther others and let them know. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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He is right Joe. But perhaps the correct word should have been anti friction material. The bearings that you mentioned are mainly roller type bearings while the Bronce bushing is a sleve type bearing. They are used very widely in small electric motors and appliances. Just look at the main bearings in your motor.
Last edited by Jimmy111 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nsracing Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003 Posts: 9437 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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joescoolcustoms wrote: |
Quote: |
Steels do not make good bearing materials. |
Humm. Maybe we should call Timkin, SKF, FAG, GKN, Hyatt Clark, Borg Warner and ther others and let them know. |
Those are "roller bearings", Joe. Sorry, different cat.
Have you ever seen plain bearing that is steel??? |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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I know he is right, but there has to be one @$$ in every thread, and it has been a while since my last turn. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen a few, very few steel bearings in a Journal style, (journal bearing is the type when a moving surface slides across another stationary surface, ei starter bushing, main and rod bearings). Those bearing where in the process of being changed out for a brass, bronze style journal bearing. They do not make a good bearing when the sliding material is also steel, or for that matter, similar material.
I think the main objective is to have a softer bearing that will "sacrifice" itself for the moving object. Usually the moving object is much more expensive than the stationary objects bearing, (think crankshaft and bearing. I will replace the bearing and keep my crank instead of vice-versa). If designed correct, it is fairly easy to replace the stationary objects bearing, and cheaper also. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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In the case of the starter bushing it is really just a matter of price. The bronze bushing costs only pennies and will last long enough to survive the warrenty period. |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I hate to admit this, but back in high school when I was to poor to pay attention, I would remove the worn starter bushing, turn it 180* and reinstall it. This put the worn thrust side opposite and would work for a good while longer. If the bushing was to loose to stay, I would peen the outside lightly with a center punch to "increase" the OD to tighten it up enough to stay put.
Po folk have po ways.
Maybe this is the root to my "everything has to be new" issue. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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74bug Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2005 Posts: 642
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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lostinbaja wrote: |
Tye OE starter bushings probably also have a lubricant inpregnated into them to help them last longer as well. |
this is true, i can't remember the name of what these bronze bushings are made of, the ones impregnated with a lubricant, but they are.
also you have to consider that the starter is not continually turning, only when starting, so the bushing should last a long time. |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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You are probably thinking of Oilite Bronze bushings. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33882 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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joescoolcustoms wrote: |
I know he is right, but there has to be one @$$ in every thread, and it has been a while since my last turn. |
I admire your honesty in admitting this, something few here do, myself included!
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74bug Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2005 Posts: 642
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Jimmy111 wrote: |
You are probably thinking of Oilite Bronze bushings. |
That's it, thanks, now i can go to sleep tonite. I hate when you can't remember something, like the name of a movie, ect... |
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