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captainpartytime Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2005 Posts: 715 Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Are all Ball Joints Created Equal? |
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Moderator edit: More information at:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457524
Motivated by Chris' upper control arm bushing thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=272333 I've decided to overhaul the front end on my '82 diesel westy. My question is...with all the upper ball joint choices, what do the pros (you guys) recommend? There is such a variation in price I want to make sure I'm putting on a quality part. Below is a break down of prices from different online venders:
Go Westy $49.95
TRW (rockauto.com) $42.79
Spicer (rockauto.com) $40.79
Moog (rockauto.com) $37.79
Van-Cafe $24.95
Bus Depot $22.29
Beck/Arnley (rockauto.com) Closeout Reg.$41.79 Now $17.91
Any thoughts? _________________ -Kerry
1982 turbo diesel Westfalia |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Actually, the only way these things fail is when the boot gets bad- then the water gets in and they fail.
Normal life on the OE ones should be in the 200k mile range, maybe more.
So, my point is, probably any of them will last a good long time. If you could determine which has the best rubber, that might tell you which one will last longer.
BTW, a couple of years back, I had a Meyle upper ball joint that was made wrong and bent the opening on the control arm when I installed it. I got a Febi one. I had to heat and bend the upper arm back where it got bent.
Really, buy it where you like doing business. I think Moog and TRW might be the same part. Seems like they do some trading on domestic parts.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I had the boot crack on one within 6 months of new. I don't remember the brand.
Andrew |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5392 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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I went with the Febi's this time simply because I was curious about that clear boot. Even though Van-Cafe's picture shows, the black booted Meyle(?) brand, they have the Febis in stock.
That clear boot is kind of weird. It seems plenty pliable. I guess we'll see how it stands up to repeated cycling.
By the way, A A. Scribbly and DC are correct about the boot being the deciding factor for an upper ball joint. The upper ball joints have very little load/pressure applied to them. So them of course, it comes down to keeping the grease in.
Lower ball joints on the other hand, have LOT'S of load applied to them. I have Meyle brand lower ball joints and one of them has started to get loose after only 20,000 miles. The boot is in great shape, but there is noticable slop between the ball and socket.
To date, I have had four upper control arm bushings, one upper ball joint, one lower ball joint and a clutch disk, all Meyle brand, fail or wear prematurely. Maybe I'm just the unlucky one, but I'm not very happy with the Meyle brand lately. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10078 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I had the boot crack on one within 6 months of new. I don't remember the brand. |
Same here. I installed new UBJ's when I got the van because I saw torn boots. Within months the new boots were also gone.
Ten years and 125000 miles later I replaced them again, not because they were loose (they weren't), but just to see if another set might keep its boots on longer.
So far, so good, but my first replacements went in the trash so I also don't know the brand. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if the boots are available separately? I could change a boot in 20 minutes from in the door to out the door. Most of the time getting it jacked up and the wheel off. Lower jints, however are a different matter!
Al
tencentlife wrote: |
Quote: |
I had the boot crack on one within 6 months of new. I don't remember the brand. |
Same here. I installed new UBJ's when I got the van because I saw torn boots. Within months the new boots were also gone.
Ten years and 125000 miles later I replaced them again, not because they were loose (they weren't), but just to see if another set might keep its boots on longer.
So far, so good, but my first replacements went in the trash so I also don't know the brand. |
_________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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captainpartytime Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2005 Posts: 715 Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Al, Chris, Andrew, 10c (don't know your true identity) all in the same post. When I asked for experts I didn't expect to get ALL of you! Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate your help. I think I'm going to try and buy the Beck/Arnly's and install them on my 82 diesel westy and get the GoWesty's (the clear cover intrigues me) and install them on my 89 7-passenger. Even though it's not a true test since the cars have different steering characteristics (power steering vs. no power, westy vs. passsenger, 14" wheels vs 15") I'll see how the boot holds up. Chris your curiosity is contageous! _________________ -Kerry
1982 turbo diesel Westfalia |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10078 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm Chris, too. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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captainpartytime wrote: |
Even though it's not a true test since the cars have different steering characteristics (power steering vs. no power, westy vs. passsenger, 14" wheels vs 15") I'll see how the boot holds up. Chris your curiosity is contageous! |
I suspect that the environment that they live in might be the biggest variable. So yours might be a fairly good control, if they are both parked and driven in the same air. No, if you took the late model only to the desert, and th 82 only down the Alcan highway, that might make a different outcome.
We will be looking to hear from you in about 10 years to hear the outcome of this test! (God willing, that we are all still here!)
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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JeffRobenolt Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007 Posts: 1513 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Any updates?
I'm doing my big brake kit have my uprights off so I thought it's time to throw new parts on.
Has any one used LEMFORDER parts?
I'm looking for the best not the cheapest part.
For control arm bushings the brands I found are,
FEQ
OEQ
AFTERMARKET
VAICO.
Any input would be appreciated. _________________ --------------------------------------------------------
jfats808 wrote: |
Most, some, few is not all. You can always learn something from everyone , even the fool. |
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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7094 Location: toronto
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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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stay away from anything made by FEQ. i have yet to see a VW part made by them that wasn't substandard. _________________ SL |
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I have a set of PEX Achs, made in germany, waiting for instal. anyone know of these? |
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kayakwesty Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2007 Posts: 687 Location: East Tennessee
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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I got some Beck-Arney...prob didn't spell that right and they were a POS.
I now have MOOG's and they have been excellent
here is a mod I did to them
http://www.kayakwesty.com/baljoint.html _________________ 1984 Westy 2.0 Jetta ABA Motor/1.8 head converted to auto tranny, with 180,000 on body, 55K on engine and transmission
B.5.5 Passat Wagen with 30v V6-67000 Miles
DAS AUTO
CHANGE YOUR FUEL LINES!
A post without pictures is useless
http://www.kayakwesty.com
http://www.waldensridgewhitewater.com/ |
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MrPolak Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004 Posts: 1337 Location: AG ,atnaltA
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Gotta love the GoWesty prices! Whooo-weee! |
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riceye Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 1661 Location: Caledonia, WI
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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I'm bringing this back up because I, apparently, have worn upper ball joints. I decided to take my Westy in for an alignment, just because I've never had one done, and my steering wheel is a tad off center (less than one spline). The alignment shop is the best around, and I trust their judgement completely. As a rule, I'm very critical of repair shops, and do all work myself. Alignment is one of the few things that I entrust others to do for me.
The thing is, I installed the current pair of upper ball joints less than two years ago. And the upper control arm bushings are fresh, as are the KYB shocks. Less than two years and 15,000 miles and they are shot. Damn!
The ball joints were purchased from Van Cafe, and carry the Sterex brand name. The box says that they were manufactured in Denmark.
I'm kinda pissed that I have to replace them again. This time I'm buying Moog. I've never had to replace a Moog part that I've installed.
I'm done ranting, now. Thanks for listening. I think I feel better. _________________ '87 Westy Weekender - daily driver on salt-free roads
There's gonna be some changes made.
“I find that things usually go well right up until the moment they don't.” - Ahwahnee
"Quality isn't method. It's the goal toward which the method is aimed." - Socrates, later quoted by R.M. Pirsig |
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vinnyvango Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2007 Posts: 74 Location: Clinton, MS
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for that tip kayakwesty. I did the grease fitting too. I thought what can it hurt? I bought but didn't need the starter tap. There was enough room to get past the taper on the standard tap before bottoming out in the joint. _________________ Shawn
84/90 Westy Wolfsburg/Soob
71 Westy with CIS fuel injection (long gone) |
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jcrofford Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2008 Posts: 61 Location: Hemet, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Kayakwesty and vinnyvango,
I like the zerks install; But I'm curious, how do you effectively get all the little metal shavings out after drilling / tapping so they really last? If I ever get all the other issues worked out, this is an improvement mod I would like to do. _________________ '83 AirCooled Vanagon L, CA |
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MrPolak Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2004 Posts: 1337 Location: AG ,atnaltA
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I take it that drilling and tapping them has not introduced any metal shavings to the inside? May I ask how many miles you have on them so far? The mod looks promising. |
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riceye Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 1661 Location: Caledonia, WI
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Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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I wanted to post a follow up after having the alignment done, and putting on a few miles.
I replaced the sloppy ball joints with a pair of new Moog (the box said "made in Germany") ball joints, and I did take the time to drill, tap and install a grease zerk in each one. Thanks for the tip! I talked to Chris at Van Cafe, and he requested I send the removed ball joints back, that they would make good on them. We were both puzzled by the fact that they had sold me Sterex ball joints. He thought they only sold Febi.
When I took the van back to the local independent alignment shop, they were able to complete their work without any problem. In fact, the owner offered that the steering and suspension looked great. And, she goes down the road rather like riding a rail. It seems I have to try to make it wander.
I asked the owner of the shop the question about wheel bearing adjustment, and his reply was that they aim for zero clearance and zero load. I suspect I was very close to that point with my adjustment which, if you recall, was about 1/4 flat tighter than the Bentley recommendation. Just enough to take up any play.
This week I had work that took me about 45 miles from home at highway speeds, which was a great chance to check and see if there was any heat build-up in the hubs from the wheel bearings being too tight. When I arrived at my destination, and also upon returning home, I checked the hub temperature with my calibrated forefinger. The metal was only slightly warm to the touch. Not over 120 degrees F, for sure. I found that touching the lug bolts in my 16x7.5 alloys yields pretty much the same temperature as the rotor hub itself. And much easier to access.
We're looking at a 3000 mile tour west next week, and due to my OCD, I suspect I'll be checking the temperature of the lug bolts at every fuel stop.
Unless I back off the adjustment nuts 1/4 flat each. What say you?
Thanks! _________________ '87 Westy Weekender - daily driver on salt-free roads
There's gonna be some changes made.
“I find that things usually go well right up until the moment they don't.” - Ahwahnee
"Quality isn't method. It's the goal toward which the method is aimed." - Socrates, later quoted by R.M. Pirsig |
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edgood1 Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004 Posts: 2049 Location: Plymouth, MA
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: |
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I wanted to chime in here as well for future searchers. I installed new upper ball joints on my syncro from Bus Depot in January this year.
The brand was PEX. 6 months and 3000 miles later (all highway) the rubber boots are completely separated on the bottom and sliced open on the sides. Junk.
The ball joint is completely exposed to the elements.
I will be replacing them with a higher quality part asap. _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia powered by Subaru
1963 Panel to Deluxe Bus project :::: (photo album)
'65 Westfalia |
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