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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:11 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
The GL-5 myth that it eats yellow metals was a problem from 20 years ago that just has not gone away. Notice how in these 54 pages there are no pictures of parts that are eaten up.
I have run GL5 Valvoline Durablend gear oil for 20 years and have never had the internal parts eaten up by chemicals. |
Why do many manufactures still recommend GL-4 oils? Seems like a lot of people here seem to think that its okay for synchros to have a short life because the parts are cheap, but I don't find pulling a tranny, shipping it off to a rebuilder, and then paying for an overhaul to be cheap at all. The internet certainly isn't flooded with pictures of ring and pinions that were damaged by GL-4 either, even though supposedly every VW tranny shop has a pile of them in the corner somewhere.
Sorry, but I FU several VW tranny by running GL-5 oil decades ago before I learned any better and my present Bus tranny quit shifting smoothly as soon as I filled it with the GL-5 required by the rebuilder, whereas it had been butter smooth even during cold weather when I first filled it with GL-4. |
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scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2658
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Regardless of pictures and proof, there are enough anecdotes here of GL5s making transmissions just about unshiftable. No such stories of GL4s.
The discussions also cover a broad range of situations - rebuilt gearboxes, later model gearboxes, bugs, buses, stock and higher performance engines, and different types of differentials.
I am convinced my 40hp will not destroy its transmission even if there was olive oil in it, as was probably jokingly written.
My car runs and shifts great now, and I want to keep the feel that way. It's 53 years old and I have no idea when, or if, the gear lube was changed. I want to go with some fresh VW equivalent, and if a non-synth GL4 is what is closest, I want to know what brand(s) is recommended. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69798
Location: Phoenix Metro
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26776
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
I have run GL5 Valvoline Durablend gear oil for 20 years and have never had the internal parts eaten up by chemicals. |
Valvoline's oil has changed 4+ times in 20 years, I used to run it too, but I won't run it now, because valvoline says it's wrong. My rule is I go by what it says on the bottle and follow the instructions from the company that make it. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17284
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:42 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
| there are enough anecdotes here of GL5s making transmissions just about unshiftable. |
There's only one guy on this topic that claims GL5 adversely affected shifting.
| scottyrocks wrote: |
| No such stories of GL4s. |
None? Perhaps you missed the post I recently made where I was considering pulling out my low mileage horrible shifting gearbox for a rebuild. But before I did that, I drained out the GL-4 the PO put in and filled it with GL5. It shifts soooo great now.
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scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2658
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Well I guess that's what happens when you read all 54 pages in one shot. The repetitiveness of it makes everything sort of run together. 
Regardless, I'm going with Sta-lube GL4. If it's smooth it'll stay in. If not, I'll try something else.
And what you just did there was a point I was trying to make. Anyone who has either a good or bad experience with a product should state what the product is, as well as any modifications to the car that would affect how the product works. That would go a long way in helping people choose the best product for their needs. |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15298
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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The real problem with this 55 page thread and the 200 page oil thread is there is one guy that is a self proclaimed expert that just argues with everybody because he demands to be known as the motor oil and gear oil expert. On any and all forums it can be difficult to separate the trolls from the truly experienced and educated.
Oils have changed a lot in the last 40 years and relying on a 40 year old manual for information can be dangerous. Some people just won't let old myths die because they must continue doing what they have always done.
I have yet to ever see one picture of internal damage caused by any kind of chemical reaction from what oil is used.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
The real problem with this 55 page thread and the 200 page oil thread is there is one guy that is a self proclaimed expert that just argues with everybody because he demands to be known as the motor oil and gear oil expert. On any and all forums it can be difficult to separate the trolls from the truly experienced and educated.
Oils have changed a lot in the last 40 years and relying on a 40 year old manual for information can be dangerous. Some people just won't let old myths die because they must continue doing what they have always done.
I have yet to ever see one picture of internal damage caused by any kind of chemical reaction from what oil is used. |
GL-4 is a modern oil that is recommended by many automobile makes today, it is designed to give superior shifting while protecting the gears. As I have posted before many GL-4 test as well or better in publicized wear tests as even the better GL-5 oils. |
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scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2658
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Thanks muchly! |
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evillrdnikon
Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2014
Posts: 180
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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well this took almost 2 days to read through every page.... but at least im more informed now and killed a lot of time at work.....
GL5 with a weight of 85-140w is what i will be using in my rancho freeway flyer (i think it is a pro street gonna have to look at the receipt lol).
now as for brands... hell I was looking at royal purple cuz thats whats going into my engine after my 500 mile break in. either that or that valvoline or brad penn which was recommended by my engine builder.
55 pages  .... unreal....   |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| evillrdnikon wrote: |
well this took almost 2 days to read through every page.... but at least im more informed now and killed a lot of time at work.....
GL5 with a weight of 85-140w is what i will be using in my rancho freeway flyer (i think it is a pro street gonna have to look at the receipt lol).
now as for brands... hell I was looking at royal purple cuz thats whats going into my engine after my 500 mile break in. either that or that valvoline or brad penn which was recommended by my engine builder.
55 pages .... unreal.... |
Ditch the royal purple. Brad Penn, Kendall, Valvoline VR-1, Delo 400LE, anything quality with the right antiwear additives would be better for the money.
Always use what the builder recommends in engines and transmissions, but I personally would go with the Sta-Lube GL4 EverettB posted, unless given a compelling reason to use something else. That reminds me I need to grab some this weekend...
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
The real problem with this 55 page thread and the 200 page oil thread is there is one guy that is a self proclaimed expert that just argues with everybody because he demands to be known as the motor oil and gear oil expert. On any and all forums it can be difficult to separate the trolls from the truly experienced and educated.
Oils have changed a lot in the last 40 years and relying on a 40 year old manual for information can be dangerous. Some people just won't let old myths die because they must continue doing what they have always done.
I have yet to ever see one picture of internal damage caused by any kind of chemical reaction from what oil is used. |
GL-4 is a modern oil that is recommended by many automobile makes today, it is designed to give superior shifting while protecting the gears. As I have posted before many GL-4 test as well or better in publicized wear tests as even the better GL-5 oils. |
As GL-4 becomes obsolete, it will be more and more difficult to find in the near future. It does not test as well as GL-5 and gives both inferior shifting and wear protection. Like most, I switched to GL-5 years ago, and enjoy the smoother shifting and protection of our vintage German-made gearbox parts that are no longer available.
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Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26776
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Gl4 is not obsolete. 80-90 is obsolete.
you can find 75-80 gl4 in most parts stores |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:10 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| neil68 wrote: |
As GL-4 becomes obsolete, it will be more and more difficult to find in the near future. It does not test as well as GL-5 and gives both inferior shifting and wear protection. Like most, I switched to GL-5 years ago, and enjoy the smoother shifting and protection of our vintage German-made gearbox parts that are no longer available. |
I provided data many pages back that showed that GL-4 was equal to or better than GL-5 oil in wear tests. Not a single person contested it IIRC. Where is your data? |
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neil68
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Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| modok wrote: |
| Gl4 is not obsolete. |
I didn't say it was obsolete. I said: "as it becomes obsolete...in the near future".
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Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5469
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| modok wrote: |
Gl4 is not obsolete. 80-90 is obsolete.
you can find 75-80 gl4 in most parts stores |
It is not currently obsolete. After reading this from the American Petroleum Institute I bet will become obsolete within the next decade.
That does concern me as the extra protection for hypoid gears means sliding friction and it could make shifting worse with old synco designs. The Beetle transaxle does not have hypoid gears.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| neil68 wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| Gl4 is not obsolete. |
I didn't say it was obsolete. I said: "as it becomes obsolete...in the near future". |
GL-4 is recommended by manufacturers for gear box and transaxles being produced for many newer cars. Since it offers certain benefits over Gl-5, I see no reason to expect it will disappear anytime soon. There are a lot of modern proprietary blends of GL-4 being developed out there as engineers continually look for the most suitable oils for their gearbox designs. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26776
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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obsolete? Sounds depressing.
I'm just not seeing the problem. the oil companies are continually making EVEN BETTER oil, and mostly, YOU GUYS are obsolete for being afraid to put it in, because it's different!
Ok I'll switch to 75-80 weight. What do you think will happen??  (besides leaking faster)  |
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neil68
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Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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What you'll probably see being available for a while is GL4+(GL4/GL5), since gear oil suppliers realize that some old timers have to be brought into the 21st century slowly.
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Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Casting Timmy
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Joined: August 04, 2012
Posts: 1221
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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I've taken apart more than just a couple transaxles, I have never seen parts dissolved from the gear oil. Sometimes the syncrhos are discolored, but everything in those transaxles changes colors as you clean it up.
I do see scuffing and heat related damage even in boxes with gear oil in usable condition. (I do get gear boxes that should have had an oil change long ago as well)
My best advice for those with the oil debate would be to look at gear manufacturer's recommendations. I use a lot of Weddle's stuff, talking to them they recommend a non-synthetic GL5.
Another gear manufacturer for VW based transaxles also recommends GL5
The closer you are to stock power and a light weight vehicle you can probably use about anything, if you want to run some power or drive a wind block of a vehicle I suggest to my customers a GL5. Actually I suggest GL5 on either application, with heavy wreight range on higher power applications or hard drivers. |
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